Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[patrick jane]

Spam spoken by an idiot is still spam.

Yep, the dead and alive actually means lost and found alive

 

[Rosenritter]

Yep, the dead and alive actually means lost and found alive

Yes. It's symbolic speech we use everyday. Never imagined a Prodigal Zombie version of the parable before.

 

[Crucible]

Gee, I dunno Cruc, maybe because I have an issue with other people's interminable suffering that you couldn't give a fig about? That I'm not a brain dead dupe that buys into any given man made tripe that purports the very same?

So many options...

Hell was first mentioned in 150AD, long before anyone had a reason to 'control' people with fear of eternal punishment. Or whatever reason you think the dogma of Hell exists.

Muslims believe in Hell- pretty much anything that has anything to do with Jesus is going to include Hell in it's ideology. You know why? Because everything surrounding Jesus is not just empathy but also justice and judgement.

But you softies will never accept that reality for what it is.

 

[Rosenritter]

Hell was first mentioned in 150AD, long before anyone had a reason to 'control' people with fear of eternal punishment. Or whatever reason you think the dogma of Hell exists.

Muslims believe in Hell- pretty much anything that has anything to do with Jesus is going to include Hell in it's ideology. You know why? Because everything surrounding Jesus is not just empathy but also justice and judgement.

But you softies will never accept that reality for what it is.

Crucible, where do you get that date from? Read Homer for example, it is mentioned long before 150 AD. Regardless, the issue is not hell but the corrupted Paganized version that is now mistaken for Christian.

 

[freelight]

Hell, a product of mistranslation.......

Hell, a product of mistranslation.......

you are your own god.

Maybe it's more about you making 'God' in your own image, then subscribing your own assumptions about this 'god' and it's insane method of punishing people? Perhaps an inner gag-reflex of one's own self-punishment tendencies or projections? :think:

Have some compassion.

I'm confident enough to have some trust in the integrity of my own mind (which includes every faculty of reason, logic, intelligence) with help from spirit...to figure, determine or conclude certain things about a certain subject, and be open to keep learning as well.

So far, sorry but I can't accept your false mistranslated conclusion of ECT. It does not stand up to truth, either in principle or translation.

Ample evidence for conditional immortality which is gaining more acceptance among evangelicals can be found here.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Hell was first mentioned in 150AD, long before anyone had a reason to 'control' people with fear of eternal punishment. Or whatever reason you think the dogma of Hell exists.

Muslims believe in Hell- pretty much anything that has anything to do with Jesus is going to include Hell in it's ideology. You know why? Because everything surrounding Jesus is not just empathy but also justice and judgement.

But you softies will never accept that reality for what it is.

Which "hell" would that be Cruc? The grave? Or hey, maybe it's 'hades', 'tartarus', 'gehenna' etc.

Only a completely loveless individual would equate an objection to other people's suffering as being *soft*.

So way to go.

lain:

 

[Crucible]

Crucible, where do you get that date from? Read Homer for example, it is mentioned long before 150 AD. Regardless, the issue is not hell but the corrupted Paganized version that is now mistaken for Christian.

Justin Martyr brought up plenty about Hell in 150AD.

He spoke of Hell being both a place commensurate to one's wickedness and a place of fire.

 

[way 2 go]

Yes, my point was they are holding a God-image with 2 faces, a contradicted personality-complex. They mis-take divine love as also being a force of cruelty, which makes for con-fusion, whose author is the devil, who delights in cruelty.

your idea of god comes from lies

Jesus is the Lion and the Lamb

Rev_5:5**And one of the elders said to me, Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals of it.

Rev_5:12**saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

2Th 1:8**in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,

My former commentary on ECT here (blog portal) still holds as it can be rejected outright on moral-principle alone, besides the original language translation issues regarding the word 'aion' and other words, issues of the soul's immortality, and eschatology in general. The views of 'conditional immortality' & 'universalism' are more tenable to reason and true to universal law which recognizes 'life' and 'death' in their ultimate sense and conditions, while Universalism upholds some innate and omnipotent power of Love's Will ultimately triumphing in all souls.

Outside a 'biblical' context....more can be gleaned from other schools of religious thought, science and metaphysics

If your goal is to feel good on your way to hell,
sure

ECT is deplorable to most intelligent and enlightened people, no matter how religious texts are interpreted, since the conscience will not accept anything as heinous as ECT unless it has been seared already with false doctrine suiting an already distorted mentality.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Ignorance in this case is not bliss, but detrimental to souls.

Willful ignorance will be no excuse.

Luk 16:29**Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them.
Luk 16:30**And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.
Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

 

[Rosenritter]

Justin Martyr brought up plenty about Hell in 150AD.

He spoke of Hell being both a place commensurate to one's wickedness and a place of fire.

Justin Martyr also said hell fire would utterly destroy evil men and wicked angels and the devil leaving absolutely nothing. And the scriptures agree.

If you are looking for the modern eternal conscious torment hellfire that wasn't until Athenogoras in 170-ish AD. Then later Tertullian.

 

[Cross Reference]

I've already given ample commentary and research-information exposing the fallacy of ECT, as well as others in these 2 threads on the subject. If I didn't 'care' I would not be posting on the subject. All are free to consider and research what is shared, and to keep researching, unless has all knowledge.

The video below is a good basic overview of the 'conditional immortality' perspective on 'hell', - it is offered for its clarity and information purposes only (it is not promoting the organization sponsoring the video, as I may not necessarily agree with other aspects of their theology).

[video]https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=hWIEmHyeiIY[/video]

Enjoy :surf:

You are not a Christian. What you posit is not Christian. You are on a forum that, by your presennce, is it an adulterated forum. The same can be said regarding the disposition of Arthur's brain as well as Rosestwitch. . . satanic all.

 

[Rosenritter]

You are not a Christian. What you posit is not Christian. You are on a forum that, by your presennce, is it an adulterated forum. The same can be said regarding the disposition of Arthur's brain as well as Rosestwitch. . . satanic all.

If opposing you from the gospel of John and Romans is Satanic, by what means do you preach your gospel that God does NOT give eternal life to those who put their faith in Christ?

 

[Cross Reference]

If opposing you from the gospel of John and Romans is Satanic, by what means do you preach your gospel that God does NOT give eternal life to those who put their faith in Christ?

You can't oppose me from the context of any part of the Bible. You can only oppose me from your opinion of it.

Who set you up as the holder of understanding all things Biblical? What intelligence would even consider it after reading your willfully ignorant dispositions as, fact. You take the cake!

 

[lifeisgood]

Just to see if you are consistent, at least, please answer from this text:

Jonah 4:11 KJV
(11) And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

God himself is speaking, and not even by parable. The population must be at least 120,000 people. Are they really unable to discern between their right hand and their left hand? Since you don't even allow a fictional character to use figures of speech, I ask it like this: do you believe God or disbelieve him?

Yes, they are unable to discern between their right hand and their left hand.

Yes, I do believe God.
Yes, I disbelieve you.

 

[lifeisgood]

Ah, but Patrick, it actually is spam in this case. Search on that phrase in his quote in the thread and I am sure it will appear eight times as a one-liner. He seems to think that it will somehow prove that the "prodigal son" literally died.

... we will ignore the fact that the "prodigal son" isn't even a literal person for now.
... we are not ignoring that the story has him alive and working as a pig-keeper during this time, not as a zombie.

Only you think that he was a zombie.

 

[Rosenritter]

You can't oppose me from the context of any part of the Bible. You can only oppose me from your opinion of it.

Who set you up as the holder of understanding all things Biblical? What intelligence would even consider it after reading your willfully ignorant dispositions as, fact. You take the cake!

Already have and will continue to do so as long as you persist with this blasphemy that God does not gift eternal life.

Mark 10:30 KJV
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

John 10:28 KJV
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Rosenritter]

Only you think that he was a zombie.

I speak lightly. It sounds more like you thought someone visited him, murdered him in his sleep, then raised him from death all without his knowing. Must have been a holy assassin sent by his Dad because how else would he have known his son died when no one else knew? Not even Jesus knew...

 

[lifeisgood]

I speak lightly. It sounds more like you thought someone visited him, murdered him in his sleep, then raised him from death all without his knowing. Must have been a holy assassin sent by his Dad because how else would he have known his son died when no one else knew? Not even Jesus knew...

Made up by Rosenritter's misunderstanding of what another said, in this case, lifeisgood.

 

[Crucible]

Justin Martyr also said hell fire would utterly destroy evil men and wicked angels and the devil leaving absolutely nothing. And the scriptures agree.

If you are looking for the modern eternal conscious torment hellfire that wasn't until Athenogoras in 170-ish AD. Then later Tertullian.

You can't believe in eternal Paradise and not Hell. That pretty much makes Paradise, justice, the dire warnings, and everything else obsolete.

Justin Martyr was all about a literal, eternal conscious punishment. If you can't take his words for what they are, then it's no wonder you can't see it in Jesus' warnings.

You're just in denial.

 

[Rosenritter]

You can't believe in eternal Paradise and not Hell. That pretty much makes Paradise, justice, the dire warnings, and everything else obsolete.

Justin Martyr was all about a literal, eternal conscious punishment. If you can't take his words for what they are, then it's no wonder you can't see it in Jesus' warnings.

You're just in denial.

1. One can absolutely believe in an eternal paradise without people needing to be tortured for infinity to power the generators.
2. So I take it that you will be ready to retract those words when I post what Justin actually said? Acknowledge yes or no please.

 

[Cross Reference]

Already have and will continue to do so as long as you persist with this blasphemy that God does not gift eternal life.

Where else can a Christian go when he/she dies except heaven? AND!!

Blasphemy???? Don't make me laugh.

It is blasphemous to me that you don't know your scriptures and find it needful to rely on other man origined precepts to explain God and Jesus Christ to then present it all as the truth!! To me, "Blasphemy for Dummies" might be a book you could easily author.

.