Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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chrysostom said:
so why don't we use words as they were meant to be used?
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I prefer biblical terms for biblical discussion first and foremost, but conversational English almost always comes into play. The problems arise when Conversational English is given precedence over scriptural terms and definitions.

"Separation from God" is not a scriptural term. The actual and accurate terms are death, darkness, silence, never shalt thou be any more, no more being, without knowledge that they are dead, free from troubling, and so forth. I would prefer the more accurate terms be used.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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Cross Reference said:
Timotheos said:
It is absolutely true. The soul of man cannot die, therefore . .



Your question has been answered by Jesus Who declared it. Your need is to accept how it reads ...
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Ahem...

Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Matthew 10:28 KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I believe you are mistaken. The soul of man can die, as stated by Ezekiel and Jesus. Are you able to accept it as it reads, as you admonish others?

But can you please show me where you read that the soul of man cannot die?
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marke

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
Because being in hell, spiritually speaking, is what actually being cutoff means in many instantances even though in actually it is future in the physical experience of it..
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Was the rich man spoken of in Luke 16 actually in torment in hell just like Jesus said?
 
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marke

Well-known member
Rosenritter said:
Show me where the Bible says that the dead in hell are in torment. Not in a reference to a fictional setting, mind you, but actually says " the dead are in torment" or something to that effect please.

Job 3:13-22 KJV
For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, [14] With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; [15] Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver: [16] Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. [17] There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. [18] There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. [19] The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master. [20] Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul; [21] Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures; [22] Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

The prophet Job says that the dead are at rest and cease from troubling when they are in the grave. And many more places besides agree with the prophet.
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When Jesus spoke a parable, the Bible called it a parable. When Jesus spoke of Noah, Jonah, Elijah, Lot, the rich man in hell, and others, He was speaking of real people. In Mark 9 He warned people to take the necessary precautions so as to not end up in "hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

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Rosenritter said:
Cross Reference said:
Ahem...

Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
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What did I miss? Better yet, what is it you don't want to understand about separation from God being a death sentence unto itself? Would you want to live where God isn't? I wouldn't. Yet, it is the case for untold millions of men and women who are eternally separated from. Hell was made for rge devil and his angels. It wasn't ever intended for unrighteous man. That said, it is the only place he can go when physically dead just as Heaven the only place a righteous man go can go upon his physical death. What am I speaking of except his soul? Question: Will the angels cast into hell with the devil ever die? How come?

Matthew 10:28

28 And to fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Why mention Hell at all?? Why would Jesus ever bring Hell into the conversation? Is God not capable of just outright killing a soul and body without it first going to Hell or to Hell at all??? hmmm?

Hell is a place of continued dying as in, "death without end" because the soul of man cannot die?

Why is suicide such a thing the wicked hopeless desire but would not if they knew their soul would carry on in Hell?
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Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
I wonder if any of the pious puritans here have ever encountered or seen chronic suffering. They sure do like to justify it for other people besides themselves.

Oh, and if you think the case of the rich man and Lazarus isn't a parable then answer this. Do you seriously think a man surrounded by flames would just be begging for a single drop of water?!

:doh:
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Arthur Brain said:
I wonder if any of the pious puritans here have ever encountered or seen chronic suffering. They sure do like to justify it for other people besides themselves.

Oh, and if you think the case of the rich man and Lazarus isn't a parable then answer this. Do you seriously think a man surrounded by flames would just be begging for a single drop of water?!

:doh:
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Who are you, did you say?
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
In the meantime, can anyone please explain why a man surrounded by flame would request a single drop of water for his tongue instead of a waterfall or fire extinguisher or something? How in "blazes" is this supposed to be taken as literal?
 
L

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Arthur Brain said:
Did you miss the 'don't bother' part or do you simply lack a plausible answer?

To be fair you'd be the first to give one if you could explain how it's realistic that a man on/in or surrounded by fire would request a solitary drop of water...
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During punishment. Yes.

After casting into the lake of fire. No.

LA
 
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marke

Well-known member
Arthur Brain said:
In the meantime, can anyone please explain why a man surrounded by flame would request a single drop of water for his tongue instead of a waterfall or fire extinguisher or something? How in "blazes" is this supposed to be taken as literal?
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Is that all it takes for someone to question Jesus' honesty, an unanswered silly question?
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
marke said:
Is that all it takes for someone to question Jesus' honesty, an unanswered silly question?
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What exactly is 'silly' about it? How in the name of sanity is it reasonable to believe that a man tormented in some way by fire is literally going to ask for a single drop of water??????!

It's blatantly obvious that this isn't literal as anybody suffering such would be asking for a monsoon or something but hey, you keep at that silly line yourself if it fits your belief...
 
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marke

Well-known member
Arthur Brain said:
What exactly is 'silly' about it? How in the name of sanity is it reasonable to believe that a man tormented in some way by fire is literally going to ask for a single drop of water??????!

It's blatantly obvious that this isn't literal as anybody suffering such would be asking for a monsoon or something but hey, you keep at that silly line yourself if it fits your belief...
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I don't agree. Maybe that was the rich man's plan to appear humble. Nevertheless, I do not entertain arguments suggesting that God lied, which are based on silly human reasoning.
 
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