Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Cross Reference]

Cross Reference,
re: "In the OT some went to a place of eternal torment..."

I'm not aware of any OT scripture that says that. What do you have in mind?

Here the account. It is NOT a parable:


"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19-31 (KJV)

 

[rstrats]

Cross Reference,
re: "Here the account. It is NOT a parable:...Luke 16:19-31 (KJV) "

Luke is NT, not OT. And parable or not, nothing is said about torment being eternal.

 

[Cross Reference]

Very well written, Marhig. I am 99% in agreement. This is the 1% I believe needs Adjusting:

Once we know God, we should turn from sin to remain in the light God and not turn to darkness again, remain unspotted from the world being led by the spirit and worship God in spirit and in truth following Jesus.

Since, the scriptures tell us God will not compromise with anyone in sin, I don't believe we can begin to know God UNTIL we turn from sin. That makes the issue to be one of hungering and thirsting after righteousness. When we come to realize that by our inconsistencies, we will see just how strong the law of the flesh is that will oppose us. Paul found that out in Rom 7. This is why I believe Jesus used this wording to explain the issue:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3 (KJV)

I can well understand your "cornerstone" illustration to also be the eternal dwelling place for the one who understands where the warfare lies and the necessity for one to actually "set up shop" upon it. By his building upon it will he then be learning to live in romans 8. "Upon this solid rock, this Cornerstone, I will build my Church".

Thank you for such a fine blog. Truly a breath of fresh air. . .

 

[marhig]

Very well written, Marhig. I am 99% in agreement. This is the 1% I believe needs Adjusting:



Since, the scriptures tell us God will not compromise with anyone in sin, I don't believe we can begin to know God UNTIL we turn from sin. That makes the issue to be one of hungering and thirsting after righteousness. When we come to realize that by our inconsistencies, we will see just how strong the law of the flesh is that will oppose us. Paul found that out in Rom 7. This is why I believe Jesus used this wording to explain the issue:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3 (KJV)

I can well understand your "cornerstone" illustration to also be the eternal dwelling place for the one who understands where the warfare lies and the necessity for one to actually "set up shop" upon it. By his building upon it will he then be learning to live in romans 8. "Upon this solid rock, this Cornerstone, I will build my Church".

Thank you for such a fine blog. Truly a breath of fresh air. . .

I agree do you believe in the rock of revelation of Christ?

Since, the scriptures tell us God will not compromise with anyone in sin, I don't believe we can begin to know God UNTIL we turn from sin. That makes the issue to be one of hungering and thirsting after righteousness.

We were talking about this in our house meeting last night God wants us to turn from sin. This is the first thing Jesus tells us to do when we follow him, deny ourselves. God won't give us wisdom and understanding if we are wilfully sinning, to me, this is denying God.

Do you believe like others, that your saved regardless, even if you carry on wilfully sinning? I see many say that they won't face judgment and their sins are hidden once they believe, and they're just going straight heaven, I don't believe this to be true, to me this is like Satan's teaching of you shalt not surely die. And it says this in the Bible

2 Corinthians 5

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I believe that judgement starts here once we know God, because how can we be judged in ignorance? Although, God knows who's heard the truth.

And what do you believe regarding this, Thanks

I might not answer until later, I'm just going out with my family

 

[lifeisgood]

Then I guess he wouldn't be a very good example for what you declared about everyone else.

I have no idea of what you are talking about.

If you are talking about me telling people that God said, 'When I see the blood...' I will pass over you (save you), then you would have a problem with the Lord and not with me, for I am simply repeating what He says.

David believed in the blood of the lamb, the Sacrifice over the Altar it which is type and shadow of Jesus Christ and the work He would do on the Cross of Calvary; therefore, David believed in the shed blood of the lamb.

If you are talking about something else, you're going to have to be more specific.

 

[Cross Reference]

I have no idea of what you are talking about.

If you are talking about me telling people that God said, 'When I see the blood...' I will pass over you (save you), then you would have a problem with the Lord and not with me, for I am simply repeating what He says.

David believed in the blood of the lamb, the Sacrifice over the Altar it which is type and shadow of Jesus Christ and the work He would do on the Cross of Calvary; therefore, David believed in the shed blood of the lamb.

If you are talking about something else, you're going to have to be more specific.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=4783200&viewfull=1#post4783200

 

[Cross Reference]

I agree do you believe in the rock of revelation of Christ?



We were talking about this in our house meeting last night God wants us to turn from sin. This is the first thing Jesus tells us to do when we follow him, deny ourselves. God won't give us wisdom and understanding if we are wilfully sinning, to me, this is denying God.

Do you believe like others, that your saved regardless, even if you carry on wilfully sinning? I see many say that they won't face judgment and their sins are hidden once they believe, and they're just going straight heaven, I don't believe this to be true, to me this is like Satan's teaching of you shalt not surely die. And it says this in the Bible

2 Corinthians 5

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I believe that judgement starts here once we know God, because how can we be judged in ignorance? Although, God knows who's heard the truth.

And what do you believe regarding this, Thanks

I might not answer until later, I'm just going out with my family

In way of answering your question for reasons I hope will bring you a greater understanding of the issues, please permit me to ask you to explain what you believe the result would be to the following questions and then lets discuss them as they relate to Jesus Christ:

1. Can one have a relationship with another without intimacy?
2. Can one be married to another without intimacy?

 

[rstrats]

Cross Reference,

I would still like to see the OT scripture that shows that "some went to a place of eternal torment" as you asserted.

 

[marke]

I can support almost every one of those words that hell cuts us off from by scripture. Maybe all of them.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. [6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The Bible says the dead are cut off and the Bible says the dead are in hell in torment. How can both be understood to be true at the same time? Not by saying the dead are just cut off but not in torment.

 

[Cross Reference]

Cross Reference,

I would still like to see the OT scripture that shows that "some went to a place of eternal torment" as you asserted.

Obviously your motive is to disprove. Cherry pick elsewhere. I am not interested. I gave you the account by Jesus Himself. Too bad that isn't good enough for you.

 

[Cross Reference]

The Bible says the dead are cut off and the Bible says the dead are in hell in torment. How can both be understood to be true at the same time? Not by saying the dead are just cut off but not in torment.

Because being in hell, spiritually speaking, is what actually being cutoff means in many instantances even though in actually it is future in the physical experience of it..

 

[lifeisgood]

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=4783200&viewfull=1#post4783200

What did you not understand?


The believer who is guilt-ridden and conscience-stricken because of sin, rather than seeking fellowship with God, will shy away from Him just as Adam and Eve did. After their sin, they ran, NOT to Him, but FROM Him—they hid from God (Genesis 3:8-10).

There are examples of believers today who have sinned and instead of running TOWARD God and ask Him for forgiveness and help, have become Catholics, gone to a psychological program of x months/years, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Cross Reference]

What did you not understand?


I gave it to you. re David.

 

[lifeisgood]

I gave it to you. re David.

What about David?

He believed in the blood of the Sacrifice (type/shadow of Jesus Christ's blood) over the Altar (type/shadow of the Cross of Calvary).

 

[rstrats]

Cross Reference,
re: " I gave you the account by Jesus Himself. Too bad that isn't good enough for you."

Any account by the Messiah certainly would be good enough. However, your Luke passage is from the New Testament and not the Old Testment. And even if it were, nothing in it says anything about torment which never ends.

BTW, what did I say that could be categorized as cherry picking?

 

[Cross Reference]

Cross Reference,
re: " I gave you the account by Jesus Himself. Too bad that isn't good enough for you."

Any account by the Messiah certainly would be good enough.

So what's yur problem in acceptingit as He states it?

However, your Luke passage is from the New Testament and not the Old Testment.

So? What other "testament" was possible that could be used to explain the account from the mouth of Jesus?? He was both testaments in human flesh. Want to argue that as well?

{quote]And even if it were, nothing in it says anything about torment which never ends.

Consider your Braille machine has failed you..

You have a problem, bunk.

BTW, what did I say that could be categorized as cherry picking?

Your whole demeanor is one big cherry picking, rabbit chasing, give away. I am not interested in entertaining. /bye.

 

[Cross Reference]

What about David?

He believed in the blood of the Sacrifice (type/shadow of Jesus Christ's blood) over the Altar (type/shadow of the Cross of Calvary).

<ignore button activated, GT>

 

[Rosenritter]

The Bible says the dead are cut off and the Bible says the dead are in hell in torment. How can both be understood to be true at the same time? Not by saying the dead are just cut off but not in torment.

Show me where the Bible says that the dead in hell are in torment. Not in a reference to a fictional setting, mind you, but actually says " the dead are in torment" or something to that effect please.

Job 3:13-22 KJV
For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, [14] With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; [15] Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver: [16] Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. [17] There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. [18] There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. [19] The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master. [20] Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul; [21] Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures; [22] Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

The prophet Job says that the dead are at rest and cease from troubling when they are in the grave. And many more places besides agree with the prophet.

 

[Rosenritter]

Cross Reference,
re: "Here the account. It is NOT a parable:...Luke 16:19-31 (KJV) "

Luke is NT, not OT. And parable or not, nothing is said about torment being eternal.

Considering Jesus always spoke to the multitudes in parable (fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah) and the whole of Luke 16 was before a multitude, and Bible commentators recognize all the stories in Luke 16 as parable, what basis do you use to judge that one single story as "NOT a parable?"

 

[Rosenritter]

Not hardly. In the OT some went to a place of eternal torment while others, who died in faith, a place of paradise to await being set free that they can enter into the presence of God.

And you read this where?