are you sure?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
are you sure?
Hi Ben,
I am a Christ-ian. I believe that Jesus is fully God. If you want to have a discussion intending to convert all Christians to Judaism, please start your own thread for that. Don't do it here.
Rosenritter
New member
God is Love
1 John 4:14-21 KJV
(14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
(15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
(16) And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
(17) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
(19) We love him, because he first loved us.
(20) If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
(21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Pretty sure.
glad you are pretty sure -
I was just having a little fun with freelight who is still investigating what is truth so anytime I see him say something definite I want to make sure he is sure
Rosenritter
New member
Thanks for specifying what you meant. Glad to hear you aren't Jonathan Edwards.
Rosenritter
New member
I will join your thread if you invite me Ben.
I'm pretty sure of that but freelight isn't
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Do you believe John was inspired by the Holy Spirit when he penned his passages on 'God' and 'love' in the writings ascribed to John? In my own conscience and human experience, I'm pretty sure of God working in our hearts by love by the Spirit. Do you interpret John differently, and is your own experience of 'love' apart from 'God'?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Just what are you 'sure' of about 'God'? How much is taken by 'faith', 'assumption', 'preference' or speculation? As far as the subject here I've given ample commentary and my own perspectives/insights concerning the matter in this and the other thread on the subject. I'm quite fine assuming an 'agnostic' position accepting that some things may not be 'knowable' or currently are not 'knowable' to me. On the other hand I pursue a more 'gnostic' approach to religion and spirituality, meaning I accept personal religious experience as a genuine 'knowledge' about 'God' since I experience such subjectively or spiritually.... as Paul speaks about, "to be spiritually minded is life and peace", "spiritual things must be spiritually discerned", "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God", etc.
There is both the 'unknowable' and 'knowable' in our experience in space-time relativity. It just so happens that in this duality of 'light' and 'darkness', all is multi-dimensional.
Ben Masada
New member
You are welcome Rosenritter.
He gave us free will by which we are able to choose or reject Him -
He gave us His Son who suffered and died for us so we might live -
this I am sure of -
nothing else makes sense
Ben Masada
New member
Judaism is different from other religions. Conversion to Judaism does not start with the Jew but with the potential convert. For instance, a Christian who expresses the desire to join God's Covenant with His People Israel, he or she must seek the proper Jewish authority in charge of conversions. It is called the Bet Din.
Ben Masada
New member
I think that it would be more appropriate to say that Jesus is God only by faith which requires no understanding.
Ben Masada
New member
I do not think we should say faith requires no understanding. The faith of Abraham which saves all believers is solidly built upon Biblical understanding.
Ben Masada
New member
There is an enormous difference between faith and trust. The failure of faith constitutes a liability of the one who claims to have faith. The failure of trust is not upon the one who trusts but the one who is trusted. Abraham trusted that HaShem would not fail in His promise of a land of milk and honey to him and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. It was not faith because faith without the workings of the Law would be akin to a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26)
Too much theology and not enough simple faith and trust in the infallible inerrant inspired Word of God.
way 2 go
Well-known member
they are not.
Luk 16:24-31
Jesus tells the Pharisees about Abraham, Lazarus
and the rich man and Jesus reveals
already known truths such as
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,
and he caps it off with
the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.
do you believe Jesus ?
Rosenritter
New member
Way 2 Go, you have a reputation for being hard headed but you have stepped into the realm of fabrication now. "Already known truths?" The law and the prophets call you a liar. Your "already known truths" are the stuff of pagan mythology, not previous scripture.
Jesus used the figure of a Gentile hell as the story element, which does not overrule dozens of clear passages that state the dead are plainly dead and beyond consciousness.
But you have been told a dozen times and you always refuse to answer in anything resembling an intelligent fashion. I am not sure why you continue, but you always do.
People are only dead until their raising from the dead.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
LA