ECT Is "Original sin" Seen by Others as Intrinsic Potential or latent in Creation as Evil

[GeoffW]

The Scriptures reveal that, at least in theory, a person has the ability to attain eternal life by his own deeds or works (Ro.2:6-11). He has the ability but not the "will."

Do you really think that the Lord Jesus would tell anyone that they can obtain eternal life by keeping the law (Mt.19:16-17) if it was not, at least in theory, possible to obtain eternal life that way?

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

No, I don't think that Jesus did tell anyone that they could attain eternal life by keeping the law. The question was asked of him, "what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
The truthful answer is 'nothing'. That's the answer Jesus gave him when you look at how the discussion unfolded.
No man can.

Geoff.

 

[GeoffW]

By tomorrow probably for sure. :thumb: "Holy me of God" :chuckle:

Yep, that's me! :beanboy:

Geoff.

 

[GeoffW]

I am Jesus' servant and spread Jesus simple teachings which most churches are not spreading or disregarding.

If that is true, then you do well.

Geoff.

 

[meshak]

If that is true, then you do well.

Geoff.

Yes, it is true.

search my threads

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I contend that the phrase "spiritually dead" engenders a belief that man was once "spiritually alive" and the majority of people (if not all) who employ this phrase also accept (consciously or unconsciously) that man fell from this "spiritually alive" state when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge.
The belief in the the "fall of man" is the seed that "spiritually dead" grows from.

All people emerge from the womb bearing the image of God:

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man" (1 Cor.11:7).​

The Greek word translated "he is" is in the "present" tense and therefore it is impossible that the reference is to Adam. So all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive. And then when a person sins that person dies spiritually.

Perhaps you want to argue that when a person sins he remains spiritually alive?

No, I don't think that Jesus did tell anyone that they could attain eternal life by keeping the law.

No? Then evidently you have not seen the following passage where He tells a lawyer that very thing:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

 

[popsthebuilder]

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

No, I don't think that Jesus did tell anyone that they could attain eternal life by keeping the law. The question was asked of him, "what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
The truthful answer is 'nothing'. That's the answer Jesus gave him when you look at how the discussion unfolded.
No man can.

Geoff.

I'm sorry, but could you give reference for this?

Jesus says there in nothing one can do!?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[glorydaz]

The Scriptures reveal that, at least in theory, a person has the ability to attain eternal life by his own deeds or works (Ro.2:6-11). He has the ability but not the "will."

Do you really think that the Lord Jesus would tell anyone that they can obtain eternal life by keeping the law (Mt.19:16-17) if it was not, at least in theory, possible to obtain eternal life that way?

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

 

[GeoffW]

All people emerge from the womb bearing the image of God:

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man" (1 Cor.11:7).​

The Greek word translated "he is" is in the "present" tense and therefore it is impossible that the reference is to Adam. So all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive. And then when a person sins that person dies spiritually.

Perhaps you want to argue that when a person sins he remains spiritually alive?

Okay, let's take a step back for a moment. I should have first asked you what you mean by "spiritually alive". Could you please define it for me in your own words?
Then I'll be able to answer your question.

No? Then evidently you have not seen the following passage where He tells a lawyer that very thing:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

Paul wrote:
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Am I to suppose that you believe Paul and Jesus are in disagreement? I think you need to look for another solution.

The thing you seem to be missing is that (as I pointed out earlier by giving YLT translation of Gen. 2:17) God said that Adam would go through two 'deaths', literally "in dying thou shalt die".
So the consequence for Adam/man was:
1 Trapped in sin with no means of self extraction, the first death.
2 Expiring at some point in the future, the second death.

Have a look at these verses below and tell me how that lawyer was going to receive life before dying his second death?

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

This is how Paul says he died his second death.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

He is a new man, the old one has expired. I have a feeling that the one that expired is the one that you are expecting to become "spiritually alive" again.
I would say that he died once to sin and now he is raised into a new life.

Geoff.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Okay, let's take a step back for a moment. I should have first asked you what you mean by "spiritually alive". Could you please define it for me in your own words?
Then I'll be able to answer your question.

"Death" is a separation. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from the very source of spiritual life, the LORD God. So spiritual life is being connected with the Spirit which is of God.

Am I to suppose that you believe Paul and Jesus are in disagreement? I think you need to look for another solution.

The solution is easy. According to the Lord Jesus a person has the ability to keep the law perfectly. No one earns eternal life by his own works, according to Paul.

From these facts we know that every single person has the ability to keep it perfectly but no one has the "will" to keep it perfectly.

Sooner or later every person decides to go his own way and not the LORD's way and does something he knows is wrong and sinful.

If a person does not have the ability to keep it perfectly then it would be unjust for the LORD to impute his sins to him for sinning.

 

[GeoffW]

I'm sorry, but could you give reference for this?

Jesus says there in nothing one can do!?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Jesus said there was nothing 'he' (the young man) could do.

Did you notice that I bolded the word 'I' in the post because the young man said what can "I" do?

Jesus demonstrated that there was nothing 'he' could do.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

But let's not get picky; since Jesus never once claimed that his works were of 'himself', but always deferred to his Father being the one who worked in him I will go on record as saying that no man can, of himself, without the enabling power of God, attain eternal life by keeping the law.

When Jerry speaks of it being possible 'in theory' he misunderstands why God is giving us all a lifetime of works to do that which we all, by the evidence of our works seek: righteousness before God. God gives us the opportunity to do that which he knows is impossible so that no one can ever say "You didn't give me the opportunity".
It is impossible, even for God, to create his equal. Think about that in relation to what has spoken to us of himself. But he can and does give the life that he has in and of himself to men.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
That in itself demonstrates what Jesus said: "the son can do nothing of himself"

Geoff.

 

[GeoffW]

"Death" is a separation. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from the very source of spiritual life, the LORD God. So spiritual life is being connected with the Spirit which is of God.

Can you justify you definition with scripture?
Was Adam created in this "spiritually alive" state?
What do you mean by "connected with"?

The solution is easy. According to the Lord Jesus a person has the ability to keep the law perfectly. No one earns eternal life by his own works, according to Paul.

From these facts we know that every single person has the ability to keep it perfectly but no one has the "will" to keep it perfectly.

Can you explain how one can have the 'ability' but no one has the 'will'? So if you can do something but don't desire to do something who is stopping you but yourself?
I'm left wondering how someone 'can' do something that is opposed to their greatest desire at the moment they choose. Can you give me an example of how that works? Surely scripture will have an example to demonstrate the truth of it.

If a person does not have the ability to keep it perfectly then it would be unjust for the LORD to impute his sins to him for sinning.

To save repeating myself I have answered this point in my reply to Popsthebuilder, post # 150. I referenced you in it.

Geoff.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can you justify you definition with scripture?

This speaks of spiritual death:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.59:2).​

Before a person sins he is spiritually alive because he is made in the image of God:

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man" (1 Cor.11:7).​

Since Adam was also made in the image of God he was created spiritually alive.

 

[GeoffW]

"Death" is a separation. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from the very source of spiritual life, the LORD God. So spiritual life is being connected with the Spirit which is of God.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Let me explain what this says to me.
God formed man from the dust... that means man, not part of man, man was complete except he wasn't an alive man, he for wasn't breathing.
God breathed into his nostrils and man became a living, breathing creature.

Young defines the word translated soul in that verse thus:
H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

How is it then that physical death can be the "the separation of the soul from the body"? That would be saying that physical death is the separation of the breathing creature from the body.
Does that make any sense to you?

To further emphasise my point.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Do we know that breathing is the first step in the process that supplies the essential oxygen to the blood, which in turn is distributes it to the rest of the body, sustaining our physical life?

I still want to know from you more about this "spiritual life" that you speak of.
If "being connected with the Spirit which is of God" is what Adam had, does it differ from the life Paul speaks of:
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
If so, how and why?
If everyone is born with it, to what advantage is it that we have it?

Geoff.

 

[GeoffW]

This speaks of spiritual death:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.59:2).​

Before a person sins he is spiritually alive because he is made in the image of God:

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man" (1 Cor.11:7).​

Since Adam was also made in the image of God he was created spiritually alive.

If "spiritual life is being connected with the Spirit which is of God", of what good was it to Adam?
Why is it not equally logical that being 'created in the image of God' was simply that, at creation man reflected the glory of God, being yet without sin. Why is it not simply that God created man 'in Christ Jesus' as one who sees that which is not yet as though it were already.
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Now I don't claim to know all the answers to this but "spiritually dead" never has sat comfortably with me and experience tells me there is a reason.

Geoff.

 

[glorydaz]

This speaks of spiritual death:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.59:2).​

Before a person sins he is spiritually alive because he is made in the image of God:

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man" (1 Cor.11:7).​

Since Adam was also made in the image of God he was created spiritually alive.

Sins separating man from God could just be a prison....locked away under condemnation.

Adam wasn't locked away until he sinned.

And, of course, all men have their own spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.​

 

[GeoffW]

And, of course, all men have their own spirit.

If you don't mind my asking, how would you describe what that means? What is man's spirit?
And, what is God's spirit?

Geoff.

 

[glorydaz]

If you don't mind my asking, how would you describe what that means? What is man's spirit?
And, what is God's spirit?

Geoff.

Man is a living soul...as you mentioned, but man is comprised of a body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Man's innermost part, his spirit, is how we communicate with the Spirit of God.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.​

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[Danoh]

If you don't mind my asking, how would you describe what that means? What is man's spirit?
And, what is God's spirit?

Geoff.

Man's spirit in that passage?

His mind.

In contrast to God's Mind.

Paul is referring to God's Mind or Outlook on said, once kept hidden things of God that the Spirit of God had revealed unto his mind.

Which things he then spoke / wrote of, given that he now had the mind of Christ on said things of God once kept hidden by God.

And that is in contrast to that mind or outlook of men that he describes at the beginning of chapter three.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[GeoffW]

Man's spirit in that passage?

His mind.

In contrast to God's Mind.

Paul is referring to God's Mind or Outlook on said, once kept hidden things of God that the Spirit of God had revealed unto his mind.

Which things he then spoke / wrote of, given that he now had the mind of Christ on said things of God once kept hidden by God.

And that is in contrast to that mind or outlook of men that he describes at the beginning of chapter three.

Absolutely! Couldn't agree more.

Geoff.

 

[GeoffW]

Man is a living soul...as you mentioned, but man is comprised of a body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Glorydaz, in light of that which I believe will come against you, I pray that you persevere and that your mind, life and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus.
There's just more than one way you can be tempted.

Man's innermost part, his spirit, is how we communicate with the Spirit of God.

It's a mind to mind communication.

Geoff.