Don't forget. As a Christian Leader in here you are to exhibit Graciousness rather than find fault. Read your Bible to learn about that. You will be accountable to God for all of your words.
Is It Actually A Correct Concept For Anyone To Earn Their Way Into God's Favor.
- Thread starter Jenkins
- Start date
Hypocrite.
Old Hat
Member
I think what's incorrect is the popular teaching that obedience is earning your way into God's Favor; or that obedience to specific Commandments is Legalism.
Yes, we are required to obey; and yes, obeying the 10 Commandments does put us in alignment with God and His Favor.
Not opinion, Biblical facts.
And here are those verses for reference to get us started:
Matthew 5:19
Matthew 23:1-3
John 14:15
John 14:21
John 15:10
John 15:14
1 John 2:6
1 John 3:4
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Revelation 14:12
One can be Jesus' Friend only by obeying His Commands. John 15:14.
Friendship is favor.
Obedience to the law is attempting to do that, yes.
In the context of Christianity, what you say next is, by definition, legalism:
In contrast, here's what Paul says about obedience:
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-8&version=NKJV
False.
How did you not notice that NOT A SINGLE VERSE in your list there is from Paul? Every single one of those verses is directed at or deal with Israel, NOT the Body of Christ. That should give you a hint that we in the Body of Christ are different than Israel. You won't find any verses like those in Paul's writings, because we are under a different set of house rules (oikonomia), a different dispensation, than that of Israel.
Old Hat
Member
Yes, but "earning" implies "works" done sheerly for the purpose of Salvation. Meaning "works" that are frowned upon by modern Christendom.
Obedience to God is not "works salvation." It's simply obedience to God.
We are not committing "works" when we obey, we are doing exactly what God Commands, and expects, of those who love Him - and those He loves.
We can't "earn" our way into heaven, but we are certainly expected to "do" and "adhere to" certain things. That is the line between what is Biblical and what is nonsense.
Old Hat
Member
Obedience to the 10 Commandments is not Legalism at all. It is exactly what the Bible teaches. It is modern mainstream churchianity that teaches otherwise and does not align with Scripture in the least.
I posted TEN verses and you dismissed each and every one of them with the excuse that they were not spoken by Paul? And you're proud of that as a rock-solid argument? That's ridiculous.
So you wanna go with "Nothing that Jesus Christ taught in the Bible is for Christians!"? That's an uphill battle to say the least and a woeful blow to your credibility here.
Paul teaches exactly what Christ taught. To claim otherwise is a slap in the face of Paul and all of the NT as a whole. What Paul taught was not to obey the 10 Commandments sheerly for the purpose of saving oneself.
In fact, Paul was a keeper of the entire 10 Commandments. Here's what the elders had to say about him:
"... thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the Law."
Acts 21:24
Paul was a Sabbath-keeper long after Christ's death upon the Cross, as well were all those who followed Christ - proven so by those who kept Sabbath the very night of Christ's death.
Luke 23:54-56
True.
UNBELIEVABLE heresy. But not uncommon for modern mainstream churchianity.
Here's how different we are than Israel. Here is the giving of the 10 Commandments on Mt. Sinai. Observe who they were directed to.
"Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath; but with him that standeth here with us this day before the Lord our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:"
Deut. 29:14-15
Exodus 12:38 reveals that those who were led out of Egypt were a "mixed multitude" - NOT one specific "race" of people. There were many strangers with the crowd that the Commandments were given to AND it was made crystal clear that the covenant was not only being made with those strangers as well, but with all those who were not present who would one day come to seek the Lord.
ETA: I have to ask. Are you one of these new adherents to the Pauline Christianity/Theology?
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It is legalism.
Paul clearly states that we are NOT under the law, but under grace.
The 10 Commandments are law.
We in the Body of Christ live by faith, not by law.
No, I told you that they were all addressed to a different audience, that being national Israel.
The Body of Christ is not the nation of Israel, therefore, if you directly apply what is said to Israel in those passages, you do yourself a disservice.
Appeal to the stone.
Straw man.
No, he doesn't.
If he HAD taught the same as what Christ taught, then why was Paul chosen to be an apostle when there were twelve apostles who all were taught by Jesus Himself already fully trained and ready to go?
It's not.
Paul calls the law a curse, Hat, and that those who are under the law are under a curse!
Galatians 3:10-14
| 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. |
In other words, Paul is telling us to not even TRY to live under the law, because if you try to keep the law, then you will be required to live UNDER THE WHOLE LAW!
You need to pay attention to the context:
Acts 21:21
| but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. |
This describes Paul's ministry PERFECTLY.
Yet Paul also says:
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
| 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the [e]law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without [f]law toward God, but under [g]law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became [h]as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. |
Why would Paul say this if he taught that one must keep the law?
Book, chapter, verse that shows that Paul was "Sabbath-keeper" long after Christ's crucifixion.
Because the second half of your sentence is a non-sequitur. It doesn't follow.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Yes, the law was expected to be followed by strangers in the land of Israel.
But that is NOT talking about the Body of Christ.
Supra.
No idea what you're talking about.
I am a Mid-Acts Dispensationalist, Open Theist, and non-denominational.
Old Hat
Member
And does all of that keep you from embracing the FACT that the Bible is a unified message from God? From beginning to end, from one author to the next - as an intentional safety measure installed by God, as well as an included function of enabling the Bible to define itself?
You can't have it both ways.
You either agree with the above, or you subscribe to a different bible altogether. God's message is uniform from Genesis to Revelation and, just as He makes clear in that book, He is not a respecter of men, nor is any part of His message given only for private interpretation.
So where do you stand?
Old Hat
Member
It would make things much easier for you if that were true.
Can you have the grace, humility or honesty, of answering a yes/no question?
Did Jesus' disciples observe the Sabbath the night after His Crucifixion? Yes/No?
"And that day was the preparation and the Sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with Him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how His body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath Day according to the Commandment."
Luke 23:54-56
Now, does that verse exist in Scripture or not?
And it was a viable portion of my evidence for Paul also being a Sabbath Keeper, as He was an observer of the 10 Commandments - and was active long after Christ's death.
He also said in multiple places that the Law was a positive thing.
1 Timothy 1:8
Romans 7:12
ETA: It is not Legalism to obey God, nor is it Works Salvation nor Bypassing Grace. It is obedience to God. Period.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
There's a change though, where continuity is partially abandoned, and partially preserved, when the Lord Jesus incarnated and was born of the Virgin Mary. The Old Covenant was amended. Dispensationalists don't agree with me on much, but we both agree it's important to know which covenant a Biblical text assumes, to interpret its meaning properly.
Old Hat
Member
Why do you call yourself 'Idolater'? (Demon-worshiper?)
God didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The Old Covenant was an external affair of obeying the 10 Commandments written in Stone - PLUS - the 613 Ceremonial/Sacrificial Preparation/Ordinances that were NOT written in Stone - WITH THE PREMISE OF - having to make sacrifices for sin if any of these Commandments were broken.
What changed?
Jesus died on the Cross a perfectly sinless man which broke the curse of Original Sin ONLY for those who would commit their lives to walking as He walked. That is - obeying the 10 Commandments.
"He that saith he abideth in Him (Jesus Christ - calling oneself a Christian) ought himself also so to walk, even as He (Jesus) walked."
1 John 2:6
"If ye keep My Commandments, ye shall abide in My love even as I have kept My Father's Commandments (the 10 Commandments), and abide in His love."
John 15:10
What is the New Covenant?
The New Covenant is an internal affair of having the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ living within our Temple (our body/spirit), having planted the 10 Commandments in/on our hearts and given us the desire, and ability via His assistance, to obey the 10 Commandments. The 613 Ceremonial/Sacrificial Preparation/Ordinances have been repealed due to the perfect sinless sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
These Ordinances:
"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings (preparations), and carnal (external) ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation (until the time of Jesus Christ - when the covenant was changed)."
Hebrews 9:10
Jesus:
"Having abolished in His flesh the enmity (the separation of God and man), even the law of Commandments contained in ordinances; "
Ephesians 2:15
The 613 Ordinances have been abolished - NOT the Forever 10 Commandments:
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross."
Colossians 2:14
Is 'Do not murder, steal, kill, worship demons, lie, etc.' contrary to us? Not at all. It is perfect morality and it is God's Righteousness.
Again, I will point out that all Christians, even the not-so-serious professed Christians, obey NINE of the 10 Commandments.
If they don't, they hardly consider themselves Christians.
The 10 Commandments are FOREVER and all of God's Word supports that fact.
ETA: Couldn't help but notice your tag line. Do you plan to kill everybody you meet, Idolater?
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I have never denied that all of scripture is given by God and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
However, that DOES NOT mean that everything was written to everyone, much less only to the Body of Christ.
If you're going to read other people's mail, you can't be applying it to yourself as if it was written to you.
That there is a single story that runs through the Bible does not change the fact that different parts of the Bible are written to different groups of people.
Not quite.
I'll take door number three, please, where I hold to the Bible, and disagree with you.
No, it's not.
As far as salvation goes, yes.
Never said it was.
Everything I've said so far comes from the Bible and can be discovered through simple reading of scripture.
Where I said before.
It is true.
Sure.
Yes.
That DOES NOT MEAN however, that therefore Paul did the same for several years after Christ's crucifixion, which is what you said. THAT is the non-sequitur.
Supra.
Yes, duh.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Only before his conversion. After, see 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.
"Active," meaning?
Yup.
Again, Paul says we live by faith, not by law. How much clearer does it have to be?
Old Hat
Member
That's exactly what "no private interpretation" means.
2 Peter 1:20
Contrary to mainstream churchianity, there is no split-gospel. That is absolute nonsense and completely unbiblical.
God doesn't change - he expects the same commitment to Him and His Commandments that He always has. He is also no respecter of persons - NOBODY gets a special break on anything that He expects. Romans 2:11
ALSO, the children of God ARE Israel - and the Bible tells us plainly that Israel is a spiritual race, NOT a physical one. They are all those who worship Him in spirit and in Truth.
Romans 9:6
Romans 9:8
I already showed that those who the Commandments were given to were NOT one race of people - not only that, but it was specified at their presentation that they were being given ALSO TO THE STRANGER PRESENT AS WELL AS THOSE WHO WERE NOT PRESENT. Deuteronomy 29:14-15
Your argument is bone-dry of water.
False. No scripture is of any private interpretation. All of God's Word is written to ALL of God's Children - those who worship Him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:24
What it means is that Jesus' followers observed the Sabbath after His death - and they did so because they observed the 10 Commandments - just exactly as Paul did and I proved that already with Acts 21:24.
Your re-writing of that verse is excluded for lack of legitimacy.
Speak english please. So that all can understand that you are saying you have no response.
Wrong. Paul had been a Christian long before Acts 21:24 and the elders clearly identified him as a "keeper of the Law".
Did Jesus obey all 10 Commandments? Yep. John 15:10
Are we to live as Jesus lived, or are we to do something entirely different?
We are to live just as He did and walk as He walked. 1 John 2:6
Why haven't you addressed the hypocrisy of you obeying NINE of the Commandments?
Would you like to tell everybody why you obey NINE of the Commandments while preaching that nobody should obey the 10 Commandments?
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Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Old Hat
Member
So you're a non-Christian? Ok cool.
Just like to know who everybody is.
Nope. True Bible-believing Christian.
Hypocrite.
So you like to mingle with Christians as an insult to them by flaunting the User Name 'Idolater' (Demon-Worshiper) and claiming you plan to KILL everyone you meet in your tag line?
Ok then.
I hope everyone takes all that into account when considering your level of credibility during discussions.
No, that's not what it means.
Saying it doesn't make it so, and scripture says otherwise.
Appeal to the stone. (That's a logical fallacy, by the way. You might want to look it up.)
False.
Oh boy, you're one of those types.
God does change. You have to ignore most of the Bible to think that He doesn't, and adhere to verses ripped out of their context that seem to indicate (only when ripped out of context) that God doesn't change.
Nope.
Duh.
Duh.
The Body of Christ, however, is a new creature, of which there are many members (like, body parts, members).
False.
Paul is talking about the portion of Israel that was cut off in their unbelief. He's not talking about the Body of Christ.
No one has said anything about race.
What I have said is about NATIONALITY, not race.
Guess what, Israel, a nation, is known as "the people of circumcision (aka law)"
Which is talking about people who visit Israel.
Not the Body of Christ.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Straw man.
So when did you start building an ark?
How about an Ark of the Covenant?
Do you keep the laws pertaining to kings?
Do you avoid eating shellfish, bacon, and other forbidden items?
Do you wear clothes of a single kind of fabric?
I recommend reading the verse you just quoted, in fact, start reading from verse 21.
What word comes before "worship in spirit and in truth"?
Taking a verse about something that happened before Christ's death and then saying it means that people did the same after His death is a non-sequitur. It doesn't follow logically.
As well as the other 600+ laws. Do you keep all of the laws?
No, you didn't prove anything.
And if you look just 3 verses prior to yours, it contradicts what you said.
Quote me where I rewrote scripture.
Google is your friend.
Also, it's "English" (with a capital E).
Straw man.
Duh. Since Acts 9.
No, that's you imparting your beliefs on the text.
Read what it says, both before and after your cherry picked prooftext:
Acts 21:17-25:
| 17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided [e]that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.” |
See also 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.
Never said otherwise.
No.
We are to live by faith, not by keeping a law, as Paul said.
Guess what? 1 John (and John's other two epistles in that series) is written to....
"the elect lady and her children"
That's NOT the Body of Christ.
I don't obey ANY of the commandments, as I do not place myself under the law. Instead, I live by faith.
Supra.
Answer to the OP...NO.
It is free for the taking, but so are our responsibilities after our conversion.
Old Hat
Member
Boy, I've seen some heretical Chat Forums. This one takes the cake. I've got my work cut out for me here. Guess I'll be here a while.
Your personal version of the Bible is so grossly inept that it's easy to see why you need so many flashy titles under your name. If you didn't have all that, nobody would listen to a thing you have to say.
God doesn't change. He is eternal. Nothing within our little world has the significance to change Him in the slightest way. If He was capable of change, His promises and commitments wouldn't hold the power that they do. This is all really just a question of faith; of which you seem to be woefully challenged.
"... I am the Lord, I change not; ..." Malachi 3:6
"Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow." Hebrews 13:8
You are very likely one of those deniers of the fact that Jesus is God so we'll just have to work on that shortcoming in another thread.
"... the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness/variation (change), neither shadow of turning (slightest possibility of change)." James 1:17
The body of Christ IS Israel, it is also the Church.
"... the power of God unto salvation [is] to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile."
Romans 1:16
"... if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Galatians 3:29
You absolutely DO obey NINE of the Commandments or else you are a murderer, a thief, an adulterer, a liar, a disrespecter of parents, a demon-worshiper, etc.
Get it together, hypocrite.