Is God Truly All Powerful?

God_Is_Truth

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lighthouse said:
Faith does not die.

It can be shipwrecked though.


1 Timothy 1
18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,

19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
 

godrulz

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lighthouse said:
We are not as free as you would like to believe. We are slaves to righteousness.


Faith does not die.

Paul linked being a slave to righteousness with active yielding of our lives. It was not coerced, unilateral, nor did it negate freedom.

The hearts and faith of some have grown cold (Hebrews; Rev. 2;3). Jesus wondered if he would find faith on the earth when he returned. The phrase 'wandered from the faith' can be found. Jesus wondered if others would also depart and cease following Him. Scripture gives accounts of apostasy and falling away.
 

godrulz

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God_Is_Truth said:
It can be shipwrecked though.


1 Timothy 1
18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,

19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

I do not see evidence that faith cannot fluctuate just because one started the race strongly. Satan almost sifted Peter. He did sift Judas.
 

Lighthouse

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godrulz said:
Paul linked being a slave to righteousness with active yielding of our lives. It was not coerced, unilateral, nor did it negate freedom.

The hearts and faith of some have grown cold (Hebrews; Rev. 2;3). Jesus wondered if he would find faith on the earth when he returned. The phrase 'wandered from the faith' can be found. Jesus wondered if others would also depart and cease following Him. Scripture gives accounts of apostasy and falling away.
You are completely, and utterly, misguided.
 

God_Is_Truth

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godrulz said:
I do not see evidence that faith cannot fluctuate just because one started the race strongly. Satan almost sifted Peter. He did sift Judas.

and the difference between OSAS and the "P" of TULIP is that in OSAS, if one falls away from the faith, they are still saved because they were saved before. one doesn't lose their salvation, even if they lose the faith.

by contrast, in calvinsm, anyone who falls away from the faith is declared to have never had faith in the first place because anyone who has faith perseverse to the end (hence it's name).
 

godrulz

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God_Is_Truth said:
and the difference between OSAS and the "P" of TULIP is that in OSAS, if one falls away from the faith, they are still saved because they were saved before. one doesn't lose their salvation, even if they lose the faith.

by contrast, in calvinsm, anyone who falls away from the faith is declared to have never had faith in the first place because anyone who has faith perseverse to the end (hence it's name).

Both these views seem problematic.

IF someone falls from the faith they are faithless or an unbeliever. By definition, they are in a former state and unsaved.

The latter is circular reasoning and ignores the other possibility: they had faith, but no longer have it and are no longer saved.

There are probably other permutations of OSAS. OSAS is usually used interchangeably with perseverance of the saints (the broad title for the doctrine dealing with the issue).
 

servent101

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Lighthouse
You really don't think there is any evidenmce in scripture that God does not operate outside of the succession of events?
I answered this in the previous post to you
the Bible does not address that question – yes there are some mentions of length of time in Scripture

And just so we get what the question is about – in your own words
time is not something tangible, nor dimensional where it can be existed outside of

We both agree here …
the Bible does not say either way,

But your comment here
but anyone with half a brain can deduce that time…
really ? well pick up a DVD from your local library on string theory, or read something by Edgar Casey… there are lots of people who are much smarter than the both of us who would differ

Do you really think that's how I see God?
actually I just took a guess, but it was based on typical manner of behavior to those who tend to try to worship the diabolical monster that is created from the literal hell fire and brimstone etc. Your comments like
but anyone with half a brain
serpent101 and lot of other derogatory comments[/quote] led me to conclude that you were most likely in the same “rage” that many others here on TOL are, who take the literal approach to Scripture.

Anyways, your
And when I trust in the Spirit, He leads me into the truth, so I know the difference.
A tree cannot bring forth good fruit and bad fruit – as your attitude is such that I cannot believe that you follow any Spirit that comes from Jesus, no sorry, if you talk the talk, they you have to walk the walk – your posts are just filled with too much piss and vinegar for me to believe your claim that you are lead of the Holy Spirit.

With Christ’s Love

Servent101
 

Clete

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Okay, sorry guys for being gone so long. I'll let post suffice as a response to several of your posts collectively.

godrulz said:
Most OSAS are Calvinistic, since TULIP is interrelated and self-consistent, though wrong.

Most Open Theists and Arminians are non-OSAS. Clete, your position probably as something to do with Mid-Acts or your understanding of salvation as irreversible. In a nutshell, how do you support OSAS (I forgot if you already told us)?
It has to do with authority basically.
In a really tiny nutshell, when you are saved you are sealed with Holy Spirit. This seal was placed on you buy God Himself, not by you, or by your pastor or anyone else. It is God's seal, placed by God Himself because the one sealed met His specified criteria for receiving that seal, namely placing one’s faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Here's the central point; we do not have the authority nor do we have the power to remove that seal. The Bible very explicitly states that we have been sealed until the day of redemption and I take the Bible at its word. God will not remove that seal until the day of redemption, period. Thus once you have been sealed you have an appointment with the Father, IN CHRIST! God CANNOT deny you because He cannot deny Himself, which is another thing that the Bible very explicitly states. In short, you cannot lose your salvation because you cannot box with God; your arms are way too short. Once you have placed your faith in Christ, it is no longer up to you but up to God. This is one reason it so ridiculous when Christians attempt to make a fellow believer feel guilty and to place them under law by making them believe that there is something more required of them. There cannot be, God is perfect and He has imputed His perfection to those who have the Holy Spirit living inside them. It's particularly tragic because placing oneself under the law, as a rule of life, is precisely the opposite of what one must do in order to live the life that they have been given the power to live in Christ. The moment you take hold of the law (rules and regulations) you abandon the power of Christ's resurrection, which is the only manner by which a holy life can be lived. You cannot serve two masters.

So, I don't care what deception Caledvwlch has allowed himself to believe. IF and I repeat IF he ever, even for a smallest of moments, ever called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God raised Him from the dead, HE WILL BE SAVED! Every other single thing that ever happens in his life is irrelevant to the issue of his salvation. Now, granted, he may well make it by what the Bible calls the skin of his teeth, that is to say that all his works will likely have been burned up and he will suffer loss in that he will not receive the rewards he might otherwise have received, but that is a different issue altogether.

And finally, the Bible doesn't speak directly about what will transpire on the day of redemption when the seal of the Holy Spirit is removed. It is at least a possibility that Caledvwlch will be given a choice to make at that time. I personally doubt very much that God will require someone who hates Him to stick around and hang out in heaven forever if he does want to be there. But, of course, that is speculation; we'll have to wait and see on that point.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Caledvwlch

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Well, that's certainly not the "you were never a Christian" treatment I've been getting.

Hey, check out the Google ad! That's funny. :think:
 

Clete

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Caledvwlch said:
Well, that's certainly not the "you were never a Christian" treatment I've been getting.

Hey, check out the Google ad! That's funny. :think:
What Google ad?
 

godrulz

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lighthouse said:
What about it?


I think it contradicts your imputed righteousness theory.

I continue to read about John Wesley. I have read enough to know that I am not a Wesleyan, though his theology has affected much of Protestantism (my Pentecostal roots especially).

The issues that he had with Calvinism, imputed righteousness (objective/justification), and practical righteousness (subjective/sanctification), are relevant to one of our sticking points. I do not believe we can divorce the righteousness of Christ in us from the practical outflow of holy living. God's provisions do not negate our responsibilites. This does not lead to works salvation. I think you have misunderstood my views in the past to the point you wonder how I can claim to know and love Jesus (toned down recently). I think you need to keep working through these issues, as do I.
 

godrulz

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Clete: There is an alternate understanding to being 'sealed'. Certainly believers are sealed, but I think other verses would show it is possible to revert back to being an unbeliever (falling away; apostasy) and thus not have the security promises.
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
godrulz said:
Both these views seem problematic.

IF someone falls from the faith they are faithless or an unbeliever. By definition, they are in a former state and unsaved.

while in the former state, if OSAS is true, then they do not become unsaved.

The latter is circular reasoning and ignores the other possibility: they had faith, but no longer have it and are no longer saved.

while it is a possibility, it is also possibly incorrect.

There are probably other permutations of OSAS. OSAS is usually used interchangeably with perseverance of the saints (the broad title for the doctrine dealing with the issue).

i see a clear distinction between OSAS and perseverance of the saints and i have explained what it is earlier.
 

Clete

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godrulz said:
Clete: There is an alternate understanding to being 'sealed'. Certainly believers are sealed, but I think other verses would show it is possible to revert back to being an unbeliever (falling away; apostasy) and thus not have the security promises.
There are indeed many verses that teach exactly that, none of which were written by Paul who was the only Apostle to the Body of Christ. All such verses were written to Israel by the Apostles to Israel who will one day sit on twelve throwns in authority over Israel and who taught that one must follow the law to remain in covenant relationship with God. It is impossible for you to teach that one can lose their salvation without teaching legalism to one degree or another. It is simply impossible.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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