Is eternal suffering literal?

[Ps82]

everyone is raised john 5.29

Yes all raised where ever they exist at this time and ultimately case into the Lake of Fire. At that event ALL death and ALL Hell will be no more.

Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Yes. Those who have done well to follow Christ will experience the joys of eternal life in the kingdom of our Lord.
Those who have not grasped onto the Savior nor received merciful salvation will see their final ... eternal ... judgment called the Lake of Fire.

its everlasting for everyone Dan 12:2 , Mat 25:46

I believe only Christ has the gift of eternal life. Those in that place currently called hell will suffer with their lives sustained until God is ready to end things as we know them.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Yes. I agree with this. They awake to shame and will be an everlasting contempt. They will never be considered to have been anything good.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Yes. Their punishment will be eternal for they will never live again to receive their next measure of life.

"the Dead " are called dead before they die and called dead after they are resurrected from the dead
dead doesn't mean cessation of existence

I agree. God has a different perspective of death ... Scripture reveals there is a first death and then a second death. Most people grasp the meaning of the first death. It is of our bodies. Yet, there are people already destined for hell and then the Lake of Fire while they are walking around in mortal bodies. An all knowing God sees the truth even before they die physically. He has a place ready for storing their living spirits until he is ready to make everything new. That place is called hell where they live even though they died the first death ... but the Second Death is something different. Hell and the first death will be no more... the contemptable eternally judged and meeting their final judgement... what ever spiritual life they had went back to God from which it came. God is omni-present and nothing of him is ever lost. God is not diminished because lost individuals are no more.

Mat_8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

Agree. God knows the hearts of men and the fate to which they are determined to go.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.

I agree. All are raised and face the final judgment ... no matter their status in life. Books were opened which tell of their sins and their destiny. Only those who are in The Book of LIFE will receive that additional measure of LIFE from God to take them into eternity. The names of the LOST are NOT THAT BOOK. They do not receive that LIFE Jesus has to give his followers.

How can the lost live eternally when they are not given that measure of eternal life from Jesus?

And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Yes. Most certainly they will. Now The Lake of Fire was first planned for the angels who had been given eternal life. They will suffer forever in the Lake of Fire. The angels' first death is the same as mankind's Second Death except I believe Angels live in torment and mankind is finally obliterated.

I see things this way. God created mankind as a bodiless spirit and then gave him a body formed from the ground [elements of creation]. God then cursed the ground for man's sake. How? So he could rid the spirit of an individual from the cursed body of the ground and give individuals a new eternal body in heaven. The spirits of lost humanity will not receive that new body having eternal life ... and life will return to God but no longer as those humans found contemptable.

 

[Ps82]

when one gets away from God's word and into their own words, Hell is a little closer

Are you saying that interpretation, understanding, and comprehension can't take place when reading the Bible? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can reveal truth to the Holy Spirit filled believers? Without these possibilities there would be no language translations, no studies to do, no commentaries to write, no reasons for discussions on TOL.

 

[SwordOfTruth]

Now The Lake of Fire was first planned for the angels who had been given eternal life. They will suffer forever in the Lake of Fire. The angels' first death is the same as mankind's Second Death except I believe Angels live in torment and mankind is finally obliterated.

It beggars belief that anyone could regard an entity that sets up such a Lake of fire and plans for it to be used, as being in any way all-loving or benevolent. That's just madness, blind stupidity.

I see things this way. God created mankind as a bodiless spirit and then gave him a body formed from the ground [elements of creation].

It was the other way round (if you're intent on taking the text literally instead of allegorically).

First the body was formed from the clay. Then the life/spirit was breathed into him thus animating the body.

God then cursed the ground for man's sake. How? So he could rid the spirit of an individual from the cursed body of the ground and give individuals a new eternal body in heaven.

If God wanted humans to be spirit beings then why did he put them in physical clay bodies in the first place? That makes no sense.

The spirits of lost humanity will not receive that new body having eternal life ... and life will return to God but no longer as those humans found contemptable.

Your life force, the spirit/quintessence is immortal. It is the universal source of all living things. It is already God if you want to insist on giving it that name (whatever makes you comfortable!). God is already in all of us and always has been. That's why we live. God is that universal life force of all things. The self, the "I", the ego is an illusiory construction caused by the mind and the senses. We are living spirit beings trapped in mortal bodies and will be freed when those mortal bodies perish. That is our true self.

TEMET NOSCE

 

[JudgeRightly]

It beggars belief that anyone could regard an entity that sets up such a Lake of fire and plans for it to be used, as being in any way all-loving or benevolent. That's just madness, blind stupidity.

When the only alternative is to force the beings He created to live with Him against their wills, the lake of fire is the only reasonable solution.

It's neither madness nor stupidity.

It's merciful and loving.

If God wanted humans to be spirit beings then why did he put them in physical clay bodies in the first place?

So that they could interact with the physical world, since the intent was that man would live on the earth forever.

That makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense.

Your life force, the spirit/quintessence is immortal. It is the universal source of all living things. It is already God if you want to insist on giving it that name (whatever makes you comfortable!). God is already in all of us and always has been. That's why we live. God is that universal life force of all things. The self, the "I", the ego is an illusiory construction caused by the mind and the senses. We are living spirit beings trapped in mortal bodies and will be freed when those mortal bodies perish. That is our true self.

New-age nonsense.

You are not God.

Thankfully.

TEMET NOSCE

Whatever that's supposed to mean...

 

[way 2 go]

Yes all raised where ever they exist at this time and ultimately case into the Lake of Fire. At that event ALL death and ALL Hell will be no more.

no
(John 5:29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

the places "death and hell" are cast into the lake of fire , nothing about ceasing to exist .
the dead are resurrected and still dead and cast into the lake of fire .nothing about ceasing to exist .

(Revelation of John 20:12-14) [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Yes. Those who have done well to follow Christ will experience the joys of eternal life in the kingdom of our Lord.
Those who have not grasped onto the Savior nor received merciful salvation will see their final ... eternal ... judgment called the Lake of Fire.

the resurrected dead will exist in the lake of fire forever .

I believe only Christ has the gift of eternal life. Those in that place currently called hell will suffer with their lives sustained until God is ready to end things as we know them.

the resurrected dead are given existence not "life"

(Ephesians 2:1) And He has made you alive , who were once dead in trespasses and sins

we are given life before and after

Yes. I agree with this. They awake to shame and will be an everlasting contempt. They will never be considered to have been anything good.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

the resurrected dead will have shame and everlasting contempt.

Yes. Their punishment will be eternal for they will never live again to receive their next measure of life.

yes eternal existence

I agree. God has a different perspective of death ... Scripture reveals there is a first death and then a second death. Most people grasp the meaning of the first death.

first death
(Ephesians 2:1) And He has made you alive , who were once dead in trespasses and sins

It is of our bodies. Yet, there are people already destined for hell and then the Lake of Fire while they are walking around in mortal bodies. An all knowing God sees the truth even before they die physically. He has a place ready for storing their living spirits until he is ready to make everything new. That place is called hell where they live even though they died the first death

the dead are existing in hell not resurrected

departed Christians are in heaven awaiting the resurrection .
(II Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

... but the Second Death is something different. Hell and the first death will be no more... the contemptable eternally judged and meeting their final judgement... what ever spiritual life they had went back to God from which it came. God is omni-present and nothing of him is ever lost. God is not diminished because lost individuals are no more.

no one is ceasing to exists

I agree. All are raised and face the final judgment ... no matter their status in life. Books were opened which tell of their sins and their destiny. Only those who are in The Book of LIFE will receive that additional measure of LIFE from God to take them into eternity. The names of the LOST are NOT THAT BOOK. They do not receive that LIFE Jesus has to give his followers.

the dead are resurrected and still dead
(Revelation of John 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

How can the lost live eternally when they are not given that measure of eternal life from Jesus?

the dead are given existence

they are dead before the physically die and still dead after the resurrection

Mat_8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

(Revelation of John 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great,stand before God;

Yes. Most certainly they will. Now The Lake of Fire was first planned for the angels who had been given eternal life. They will suffer forever in the Lake of Fire. The angels' first death is the same as mankind's Second Death except I believe Angels live in torment and mankind is finally obliterated.

I see things this way. God created mankind as a bodiless spirit and then gave him a body formed from the ground [elements of creation]. God then cursed the ground for man's sake. How? So he could rid the spirit of an individual from the cursed body of the ground and give individuals a new eternal body in heaven. The spirits of lost humanity will not receive that new body having eternal life ... and life will return to God but no longer as those humans found contemptable.

the bible teaches eternal separation from God for the lost

 

[SwordOfTruth]

When the only alternative is to force the beings He created to live with Him against their wills, the lake of fire is the only reasonable solution.

It's neither madness nor stupidity.

It's merciful and loving.

Err no it's absolutely tyrannical. Forcing any living beng to do something against their will is wicked and tyrannical. It's an act of self-delusion to pretend that living beings love or worship you if you had to force them to do it or put a gun to their head. Such a prospect is utterly non-sensical which thus epitomises why so many people have been duped by religious indoctrination.

So that they could interact with the physical world, since the intent was that man would live on the earth forever.

If the intent was for humans to be physical forever then clearly God didn't want humans being spirit beings as ps82 suggested when saying:

"So he could rid the spirit of an individual from the cursed body of the ground and give individuals a new eternal body in heaven."

New-age nonsense.
You are not God.
Thankfully.

No I'm not God but that which is truly God is in me and likewise in every living thing. I exist and live because my physical body has access to a constant flow of that life energy which is God. We are a manifestation of that life-force. All living things on Earth are likewise.

Whatever that's supposed to mean...

It means "Know Thyself", Latin

 

[JudgeRightly]

Err no it's absolutely tyrannical.

Then what would you have God do?

Forcing any living beng to do something against their will is wicked and tyrannical.

Yes, we agree.

It's an act of self-delusion to pretend that living beings love or worship you if you had to force them to do it or put a gun to their head.

There are only two options, SoT:

1. Live with God for eternity.
2. Live without God for eternity.

There is no third option.

Forcing someone who hates Him to live with Him for all eternity would be cruel, equivalent to a kidnapper preventing a woman from leaving his home. God is not a sadist. He will honor the wishes of those who reject Him.

Thus, the only alternative is to send them away for all eternity.

The place God will send those who reject Him, yourself included, unless you turn to God and repent, is the place we call the "Lake of Fire."

God will not force you to live with Him, SoT. You may not like the alternative, but if you continue to reject God, you will find the alternative preferable to living with God for eternity.

There is nothing delusional about this.

Such a prospect is utterly non-sensical which thus epitomises why so many people have been duped by religious indoctrination.

People are duped because of the absurd way people such as yourself have to twist the message God gives in His word in order to make Him seem evil.

That makes you evil, SoT, not God.

The "nonsensical" one here is you!

If the intent was for humans to be physical forever then clearly God didn't want humans being spirit beings as ps82 suggested when saying:

"So he could rid the spirit of an individual from the cursed body of the ground and give individuals a new eternal body in heaven."

The problem is that Ps82 is talking about what God must do currently, in a world that is corrupted by sin.

I'm talking about original intent, what God intended for man in a world WITHOUT sin.

God is wise, and created man in such a way that, had he not sinned, he would have been able to live forever without needing a new body.

He also created man in such a way that, if he did sin, He could at some point take that man and remove the corruption of sin from him, by giving him a new body.

No I'm not God but

No, there is no "but".

You are not God. God is not in you. You do not have God living within you.

You have rejected God. Why would God be inside you?

The only reason you still move and breathe is that God is merciful, and seeks to reconcile with you. Each day, God sets before you life and death, therefore choose life, that you may live!

that which is truly God is in me and likewise in every living thing.

This is new-age nonsense.

I exist and live because my physical body has access to a constant flow of that life energy which is God.

No. You live because God gave you life. You will not have that life forever. Repent now! Before it's too late!

We are a manifestation of that life-force. All living things on Earth are likewise.

You are a dead man walking, SoT. You will be cast into the lake of fire, unless you repent of your sin and ask God for forgiveness.

It means "Know Thyself", Latin

That's nice.

You clearly do not.

 

[SwordOfTruth]

Then what would you have God do?

There is no God of the kind you and religion peddles in order to subdue the gullible masses so the question is meaningless. But just for hypothetical discussion, such a God should not in the first place create living sentient robots to do his work and bidding. Any living sentient creation should be given free reign to do as they please, to explore the universe and make their place within it. Freedom without caveats, constraints, guns to the head and pathetic threats of eternal punishment and other BS.

Yes, we agree.

No you don't. You condone the eternal torture and suffering of anyone who chooses not to follow the ideology. That's wicked. Despotic. Tyrannical. Pure evil.

There are only two options, SoT:

1. Live with God for eternity.
2. Live without God for eternity.

There is no third option.

That's only according to your perverse ideology. There could easily be a third option which is to live without God and live freely and happily without being tortured. That fact that your ideology only provides 2 options is what identifies it as utter nonsense to any sane rational thinking individual. Even sane Christians can see that there is something horribly wrong and twisted about that entire proposition and thus realise that whilst they still believe in a god, that it is religion and carefully crafted collections of scriptures that have lead to that ridiculous ideological position and the Church enslaving millions of humans via the psychological threat of future torture and suffering.

No loving god would ever subject his own creations to eternal torture and suffering. Period.

Anyone who believes otherwise has left the path of reason and crucified their own innate rationality and intelligence.

Forcing someone who hates Him to live with Him for all eternity would be cruel, equivalent to a kidnapper preventing a woman from leaving his home. God is not a sadist. He will honor the wishes of those who reject Him.

No he absolutely will not honour the wishes of those who reject him for no such person would wish to be eternally tortured. Your ideology is ridiculous.

Thus, the only alternative is to send them away for all eternity.

There's a difference between sending someone away for eternity and making them deliberately suffer and be tortured for eternity. That you can't see that difference is testimony to how deeply indoctrinated you are.

The place God will send those who reject Him, yourself included, unless you turn to God and repent, is the place we call the "Lake of Fire."

Just utter nonsense. The real god is nothing like that. You have swallowed an evil pill.

God will not force you to live with Him, SoT. You may not like the alternative, but if you continue to reject God, you will find the alternative preferable to living with God for eternity.

Get thee behind me with this pathetic scaremongering nonsense.

There is nothing delusional about this.

Just lol

People are duped because of the absurd way people such as yourself have to twist the message God gives in His word in order to make Him seem evil.

No. Complete the opposite. The Church has twisted the truth, assembled the Bible in such a way as to create this farcical and oppressive ideology that seeks to enslave people via threats of future suffering and torment. It's frankly disgusting and a form of abuse.

That makes you evil, SoT, not God.

I'm not the one threatening to make people suffer eternally. Simple as.

God is wise, and created man in such a way that, had he not sinned, he would have been able to live forever without needing a new body.

He also created man in such a way that, if he did sin, He could at some point take that man and remove the corruption of sin from him, by giving him a new body.

He created man to tend a garden, according to the Bible. What kind of life is that?! Worse still he created man as a totally ignorant robotic entity not knowing anything of import, not even knowing he was wandering around naked. That's exploitation.

You are not God. God is not in you. You do not have God living within you.

False.

I have the true "god" running through me like a river.

You have rejected God. Why would God be inside you?

No I have only rejected YOUR perverse and illogical conception of god. A conception that is imaginary and wickedly false.

The only reason you still move and breathe is that God is merciful, and seeks to reconcile with you. Each day, God sets before you life and death, therefore choose life, that you may live!

I live because the universal life force that animates EVERY LIVING THING is within me, the true source of all life, infinite, immortal, everywhere available.

This is new-age nonsense.

No it's simple truth where as your ideology is "old-age, long past its time, no longer relevent to today's society" nonsense.

No. You live because God gave you life. You will not have that life forever. Repent now! Before it's too late!

Get the behind me. These pathetic psychological attacks have no impact on a free mind.

You are a dead man walking, SoT. You will be cast into the lake of fire, unless you repent of your sin and ask God for forgiveness.

And again. Get thee behind me