Is elohiym an idiot?

[elohiym]

I already explained the verse (as if it needed explaining) I am not going to repeat myself.

I haven't asked you to repeat yourself, Knight. YOU stated:

"Paul explains that people who do the following types of things are not righteous (these are the behaviors that often differentiate them). You might say these things are their calling cards, their fruit (so to speak)."

What you are now doing, and I knew you would do this because you have so much riding on this issue, is claiming that if you do those things that you are not unrighteous and that it is not a calling card of the unrighteous. Further, you are implying that you will inherit the Kingdom of God even if you do those things, that when "unbelievers" do those things they are unrighteous, but when "believers" do those things they are righteous.

You are engaged in intellectual legalism, Knight.

 

[elected4ever]

I haven't asked you to repeat yourself, Knight. YOU stated:

"Paul explains that people who do the following types of things are not righteous (these are the behaviors that often differentiate them). You might say these things are their calling cards, their fruit (so to speak)."

What you are now doing, and I knew you would do this because you have so much riding on this issue, is claiming that if you do those things that you are not unrighteous and that it is not a calling card of the unrighteous. Further, you are implying that you will inherit the Kingdom of God even if you do those things, that when "unbelievers" do those things they are unrighteous, but when "believers" do those things they are righteous.

You are engaged in intellectual legalism, Knight.

If it were not a possibility then why did Paul have to address the subject in the first place? Your conclusion makes no sense.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 ¶All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

 

[elohiym]

Here in lies the problem. You seem to think that the new birth eliminates the human birth. If it did then there would be no need of the resurrection.

But I don't think that. My flesh is sinful, and that is it is dead to God. God is able to raise me from the dead, give me new heart, or make me do whatever he pleases. He is in control. I am not. I surrendered all control to the Holy Spirit. My heart doesn't beat on it's own. If God withdrew his spirit I would drop dead (physically) in a second.

This is what it sounds like even if it is not your intent.

I'm trying to my best with what I have to work with.

Even when it is not your intent today to do such things there is no guarantee that it may not occur sometime in the future.

I understand what you are saying, but God promised me that he would not let me stumble or fall. The act of adultery requires a nature that I no longer identify with. The gospel I believe in is powerful enough to constrain the nature I no longer identify with. We are told that if we walk in the spirit, WE WILL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Don't you believe that?

The word says Let him who standeth take heed lest he fall.

Paul was saying that to carnal men that he called "babes in Christ." He told them explicitly that they were NOT spiritual, but carnal. I think that advice of Paul's would be good for Knight, but I have the promise already. Remember, the word also states:

1John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Will you convince me that I can stumble, when the word tells me explicitly that I can't stumble?

Lets not become to arrogant with our selves and think that we have total control of all needs and desires.

I have no control over any of my needs and desires. I am a total slave to righteousness. I have absolutely no freewill and no ability to do anything of my own self. Everything I have, and everything I get comes from God. And everything I have belongs to him.

Our reliance upon the Lord is an absolute must.

Isn't he able to bridle your flesh since He keeps your heart beating?

So be careful with your control of your self will.

I HAVE NO CONTROL! And I have no free will. My will is subject to my Father in heaven.

If you do not understand that it is my prayer that you never find out the hard way.

I already found out the hard way, so you are too late. But thanks for the sentiment and your prayers. I do appreciate it.

 

[elohiym]

If it were not a possibility then why did Paul have to address the subject in the first place? Your conclusion makes no sense.

It was a possibility! The people he was speaking to were carnal, not spiritual...

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

It is possible for carnal people to do those things because the carnal mind is enmity against God...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

We who are born of God are not carnal.

The fact remains that what Knight said is absolutely true:

"Paul explains that people who do the following types of things are not righteous (these are the behaviors that often differentiate them). You might say these things are their calling cards, their fruit (so to speak)."

If you agree with Knight's assessment of that verse--and I certainly do--then you must conclude...

1. If anyone in Paul's audience committed adultery they were giving evidence that they were unrighteous, thus unsaved.

OR...

2. If anyone in Paul's audience committed adultery they were giving evidence that they were righteous, thus saved.

A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Only a good tree is righteous. Unrighteousness is bad fruit. This isn't about conquering behavior by choice, but about doing God's will by spiritual nature.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

What you are now doing, and I knew you would do this because you have so much riding on this issue, is claiming that if you do those things that you are not unrighteous and that it is not a calling card of the unrighteous. Further, you are implying that you will inherit the Kingdom of God even if you do those things, that when "unbelievers" do those things they are unrighteous, but when "believers" do those things they are righteous.

You are engaged in intellectual legalism, Knight.

All I can do is conclude you are a monumental moron, and a mental midget.

The verse speaks for itself has been understood by bible scholars throughout history.

Swim up stream all you like!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

It was a possibility! The people he was speaking to were carnal, not spiritual...

But of course! Heck even the "babes in-Christ" are not in-Christ according to you elohiym!

That's because... as we have learned from you, pretty much EVERYBODY is carnal! Except you of course, you are perfect. :thumb:

Heaven is going to be awfully lonely with just you up there elohiym.

 

[elohiym]

The verse speaks for itself has been understood by bible scholars throughout history.

Are you claiming that they interpret it as you do, then claim that they can do those things and be righteous at the same time? :dizzy:

But of course! Heck even the "babes in-Christ" are not in-Christ according to you elohiym!

Paul said they were carnal and not spiritual (1Cor 3:1). You keep ignoring that fact over and over again, as though believers can be spiritual or carnal and it doesn't mean a thing. :kookoo:

Heaven is going to be awfully lonely with just you up there elohiym.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

That verse could not be true if what you believe is true. It should be obvious to a child.

 

[elected4ever]

But I don't think that. My flesh is sinful, and that is it is dead to God. God is able to raise me from the dead, give me new heart, or make me do whatever he pleases. He is in control. I am not. I surrendered all control to the Holy Spirit. My heart doesn't beat on it's own. If God withdrew his spirit I would drop dead (physically) in a second.

If that were the case then there would be no need of the resurrection. You flesh nature did not go any where and it is what keeps our heart beating. I think that is where we differ.

I'm trying to my best with what I have to work with.

I know you are

I understand what you are saying, but God promised me that he would not let me stumble or fall. The act of adultery requires a nature that I no longer identify with. The gospel I believe in is powerful enough to constrain the nature I no longer identify with. We are told that if we walk in the spirit, WE WILL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Don't you believe that?

We are told to recall the former days. and to keep them in mind because we know the craftiness of satan and that we should not think that we have arrived yet. We are to be vigilant and watch because Satan prawles the earth looking for those whom he may devour.

Paul was saying that to carnal men that he called "babes in Christ." He told them explicitly that they were NOT spiritual, but carnal. I think that advice of Paul's would be good for Knight, but I have the promise already. Remember, the word also states:

The weak ones or babies in Christ are as much in Christ as you are. They are not unsaved., Just unlearned and without discipline and accountability to each other. They practice church in the flesh and according to how they feel and give themselves license because of the liberty that is now there's. Being a christian is not what you do but who you are in Christ. You think for one minute that the flesh nature of man will not act religious and pass it self of as a christian. The carnal mind is the enemy of God and will seek the attention for itself. Why do you think we have this war raging within us anyway?

1John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

This is true. If one is born of god he loves those who are born of God. You do not stumble because love conquers a mutitude of sins.

Will you convince me that I can stumble, when the word tells me explicitly that I can't stumble?
I have no control over any of my needs and desires. I am a total slave to righteousness. I have absolutely no freewill and no ability to do anything of my own self. Everything I have, and everything I get comes from God. And everything I have belongs to him.
Isn't he able to bridle your flesh since He keeps your heart beating?
I HAVE NO CONTROL! And I have no free will. My will is subject to my Father in heaven.
I already found out the hard way, so you are too late. But thanks for the sentiment and your prayers. I do appreciate it.

No Jesus put you here to be a witness. Christ did not write the words that you wrote. you did. You have a responsibility to the King. and you are irresponsible if the King has to do the work that He has assigned you to do. Fact is you do have control and the liberty to exercise it.

 

[kmoney]

This was already answered, but no I don't believe a Christian has a license to sin. That is a complete misstatement of the Grace message. Read Romans 6 and you will have your answer from the Word of God.

PK, what do you think a license to sin is?

 

[elohiym]

Thanks for your words, E4E. I will pray about what you wrote. Peace.

 

[elected4ever]

Thanks for your words, E4E. I will pray about what you wrote. Peace.

Peace my brother.

 

[Aletheia]

TOL member elohiym thinks....

- Christians cannot sin
- Satan didn't fall
- babes in-Christ are not IN-Christ
- Jesus wasn't tempted
- Lucifer is NOT Satan
- Ezekiel 28:12-19 doesn't allude to Satan
- God created Satan evil
- Freewill is an illusion
- Real Christians live a perfect life
- A Christian must maintain sinless perfection or he/she is not a Christian.

Is he an idiot?

Exceedingly, abundantly, above and beyond! Yes!

 

[elected4ever]

Exceedingly, abundantly, above and beyond! Yes!

Which proves you know nothing about what Elohiym really believes. So lets just drop it.

 

[jeremysdemo]

PK, what do you think a license to sin is?

Don't they pass that out with your divers license in the US?

Pledge a elegance to the Flag of the US, under God, good you said the magic words your saved, here's both of your licenses.

keep shinin'

jerm

 

[PKevman]

PK, what do you think a license to sin is?

It is a term used as a straw man argument against the Grace message by atheists and many covenantal believers who deny salvation through grace and teach works-based doctrines.

I take the term to mean that we are condoning sin, and saying just because someone is saved by faith alone and not any works, then we are saying it's ok to sin. That is the context in which it is often used.

Further it is used by those who deny eternal security and teach that Christians can lose their salvation. Cultists use the term often as well to say "Oh you believe Christians cannot lose their salvation, so you teach that Christians can do anything they want and God won't take away their salvation." I have had this very tactic used in discussing the Bible with cultists more times than I can count. Including when my own little brother was sucked into a mind control cult- "The International Church of Christ" for over two years of his life.

In a nutshell that is the short version of my view of the term "License to sin". If you go back and read the context it is being used in this discussion, you will find it to be along these same lines.

 

[PKevman]

I think it is sad you cannot just answer "no" with confidence. My wife knows that it is impossible for me to ever commit adultery.

Then you are setting yourself up for a fall. It is never impossible for someone to mess up and blow it. Usually pride comes before a fall.

Proverbs 11:2

2 When pride comes, then comes shame;
But with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 16:18

18 Pride goes before destruction,
And a haughty spirit before a fall.

I'm curious why you don't have the desire to do commit adultery. Can you explain that?

Sure the Holy Spirit of God has changed me and made me into a new person. Before I was saved, I could care less about God or what God wanted for me and my life. When I gave my heart and my life to Jesus Christ He changed me from the inside out.
As a young believer I struggled with the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes, but God granted me victory over a lot of those struggles. Do I still go through struggles? Sure, but thankfully lustful thoughts are no longer among them. Plus I do everything I can to keep myself from temptation. I avoid watching and seeing thngs that might cause me to stumble, and give my flesh an excuse to sin.

The next few statements you make just blow my mind, but to refresh, I said:

You have to remember that Jesus made it clear that to look on a woman with lust in your heart is also adultery.

To which you AMAZINGLY replied:

I don't think you understand what Jesus actually meant by his statement, and you're probably reading into it your own subjective moral code.

No, Elohiym, I understand completely what Jesus ACTUALLY meant by His statement, He was pretty clear:

Matthew 5:27-28

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I'm not sure how much more clear Jesus could have been. Do you question Him on this issue?

When David saw Bathsheba, before he knew she was Uriah's wife, he was obviously very attracted to her.

Exactly. He lusted after her.

His lust began, not with his attraction, but after he learned she was another man's wife and desired to take her for himself.

I'm sorry, this is just one of the screwiest definitions of lust I have ever seen! So lust doesn't become lust until you find out the woman is someone else's wife? What kinda screwy stuff is that?

Since I was born of God I haven't lusted after another man's wife, and never will.

I hope for your sake you are being honest. My guess is you are just giving your lust a redefinition, kind of like a "Makeover". As long as Elohiym doesn't call it lust, then he is ok to lust right? Let's see if further in your response we find this to be the case:

I have looked at, and will look at pretty women; and I will always look at pretty women and be aroused by them;

BINGO! There it is. You will ALWAYS look at pretty women and be aroused by them? Are you serious? That is lust man.
Nothing says you always have to be aroused every time you see a pretty woman. I sure wouldn't want my wife or my daughter (when she grows up) attending a church where you attend, where you'd just be undressing them with your eyes and making excuses for it by saying it isn't lust it's just arousal. This is without a doubt one of the most twisted statements ever. Talk about making excuses for sin man!

and I thank God that he made women so beautiful.

You should thank God that He made your WIFE beautiful you pervert!

God made me that way so I would "be fruitful and multiply."

No you should be desiring your wife and only your wife once you are married. Instead you are making excuses for your sin. Now I see why you are so dogmatic to assert that you are without sin.

God gave David all his wives and an attraction for all of them before and after he married them. He was only at fault for lusting after and taking another man's wife.

God never approved of any man to have more than one wife. Anytime they did, they always paid for it. Look at Solomon for an example of that. The wisest and most blessed man on the earth, and what happened to him? His multiple wives brought him down! Are you now saying you would be ok and justified to have more than one wife? I hope not!

The problem I see with many is that they have labeled God given attraction for the opposite sex as lust or sin, which is a false doctrine.

The exact word you used before was not "attraction". It was AROUSEL! Arousel is completely different than attraction. But even then, you should be crucifying your flesh and confining your "attractions" to your wife and only your wife! And to think you were actually trying to level accusations at me!

They end up believing they commit adultery all the time, or actually commit adultery if they believe they have a license to sin.

Your theology has so twisted you up, and I mean twisted you up, that you have excused yourself in your own private lustful thoughts, and given them new definitions, and made it ok for you to sin in your heart and get away with it. Wow!

Now help me understand what you mean exactly. Do you not find any other women but your wife attractive,

No! I do NOT! I don't think of any other woman but my wife in that way. Period! As I shared as a young believer I had to learn to grow through my lustful thoughts, and the Holy Spirit helped me overcome those thoughts with the help of a loving and kind wife. And now I don't struggle with those thoughts at all. And I hope to say I will never have that type of thought for another woman again, but any man is capable of falling at any time. I could tomorrow accidentally come across a picture or a video of a naked woman and have a lustful thought. Any man could.

To think you can NEVER fall or NEVER fail is just plain arrogance, and judging by what you just said above, you fall just as much as most men because you actually said that you will ALWAYS "look at pretty women and be aroused by them".
Wow! I still cannot get over that statement, and how you can claim that you never slip up in the same breath. You are really deceived man! Seriously! I don't say that to disparage you at all, so don't start playing the martyr!

or does your statement relate to lack of desire to commit adultery now? Again, help me to understand why you no longer have that desire.

Explained above.

I think if you can explain that, then you will understand what I mean by a converted heart, and know why I doubt you will ever be able to commit adultery in the future.

You are every time you "always look at pretty women" and are "aroused by them". Every SINGLE time you do that you are committing adultery man.

That's why marriage is such a blessing. Good for you! I have had a similar experience.

Not if you haven't learned to crucify your arousel you have not.

As for my past, I was an adulterer in my first marriage, multiple times.

I'm sorry to hear that. Truly I am.

So now: no. Past: yes--many times. Future: not a chance.

Only because you have redefined that sin of the heart and made it to not be sin. Physical adultery isn't the only type of adultery my friend.

Jesus wasn't. See this is where we disagree. It has to do with why you don't desire to commit adultery now, what is motivating you now.

The Spirit of God overcoming my flesh and allowing HIM to have victory in my life. The exact same power and principle that allowed me to go from being a chain smoker to being delivered completely from the addiction and the temptation to smoke.

If it self-righteousness, then you just want to be praised for your right choices, and in time you will commit adultery (not can but will).

That is where you are wrong. It is the righteousness of God in me. The Holy Spirit who dwells within me and convicts me of sin when I have sinful thoughts.

If it is the Holy Spirit which dwells in you that is constraining you (love), and I'm sure you love your wife, then I will bet that you NEVER can possibly commit adultery again.

You are right in that if I am being obedient to the Spirit and not the flesh then I would never commit adultery again (not even in thoughts or arousels). But the flesh is a beast that we fight with until our dying day.

And out of curiosity, if either one of the options could be true, which one would you hope was true. We both know the answer to that, and that is exactly what your merciful heavenly Father has done for you.

He has given me actual victory over sins in my life Elohiym. Not because I get to redefine them and not call them sins anymore. But ACTUAL victories! Victories over drug, alcohol, smoking, lust, you name it and I once did it all. But praise be to God He has changed me. That change comes from the INSIDE out! It isn't just changing OUTWARD behaviors. That is NOT crucifying the flesh Elohiym!

The Bible actually describes several perfect men, PK. Job was perfect (Job 1:8), Noah was perfect (Gen 6:9), Enoch, etc.

:doh: In those instances the meaning from the texts is that they were "mature" and that they "walked with God". Blameless meaning that men did not have reason to accuse them, and God knew their hearts and knew them to be Godly men who loved Him. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Elohiym. (Romans 3:10,23)

They were not perfect in the flesh. They were perfect in spirit. Similarly, I am not perfect in flesh, but perfect in spirit. My flesh is sinful, but I am sinless, because I am born of God.

This is where you guys are wrong. You are not TWO people Elohiym. You are one person! If you sin it is YOU sinning. Granted when you sin you are not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh, but it is still YOU Elohiym sinning. It isn't the Holy Spirit sinning.

Salvation is based on righteousness, and adulterers are not righteous.

They are unrighteous. The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

You are right that salvation is based on righteousness, and the Bible says that there are NONE righteous, no NOT ONE! When a person gets saved God DECLARES them righteous in HIS SIGHT. That is what justification is. God declaring a guilty sinner to be righteous in HIS SIGHT!
Salvation is based on righteousness. The only righteousness God accepts is HIS OWN!

Paul was very clear, and he said "be not deceived."

And yet you have been, sir. I hope you will see that!

Don't you think the capacity to love, you received by the Holy Spirit, is powerful enough to bridle your flesh? If it isn't powerful enough to do that, why do you think it will be powerful enough to raise the dead?

I haven't been raised from the dead YET Elohiym. Neither have you. We still live in these bodies that are sinful.

 

[Pettrix]

Elohiym is SO FAR GONE, I don't believe that anything shown or proven to him will change his mind. His mind is made-up and all the proof in the world will not change his thinking at this time.

It is probably best to let him fade away into the dark abyss of his. Maybe he might come around in the near future. For now, it is like talking to a stone.

 

[Stripe]

God uses the foolish and weak things of this world to shame the wise. Elo, does God use satan to shame the wise?

 

[elected4ever]

I believe I promised you this PK

2 Corinthians 5:1 ¶For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

This is our hope. But what is hope if we possess that for which we hope. Therefore we do not yet possess that for which we hope. Our hope is to one day to be clothed with a new body in righteousness like that of Jesus.


6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Why are we confident because of our faith, Our Faith is the substance of our hope. Our hope of being as Christ is at His coming gives us confidence and willingness to remain on earth looking forward to the fulfillment of promise. The substance of our hope is so real to us that it is as though we already possess our hope. We face each and every day with a knowledge that the world does not possess and indeed thinks is nothing more than wishful thinking. Our hope is not a wish but a real posession even though we don't see it in a physical sense.


9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.The all here is the saved and the unsaved. No exceptions. Every man will give an account of his life on earth. The earth is the the Lord's and the fullness thereof. Man is accountable to God. Jesus is the King of the Kingdom It does not matter if the subjects know the King or or not. All the subjects of the King will give an account to the King.


11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.Who knows the King but His brother and because we know Him we persuade men because we know what it will be like to fall into the hand ot the living God. We work while it is day because the night comes when no man will work.

 

[elected4ever]

Elohiym is SO FAR GONE, I don't believe that anything shown or proven to him will change his mind. His mind is made-up and all the proof in the world will not change his thinking at this time.

It is probably best to let him fade away into the dark abyss of his. Maybe he might come around in the near future. For now, it is like talking to a stone.

Don't be to sure of that. Is that what you do with the brother you disagree with? Write them off?