Is America great?

[Sancocho]

In your opinion which countries have been obedient to the Gospel?

Catholic countries with a comprehensive Concordat are among the least violent countries in the world, do not allow homosexual marriage nor indoctrination of children.

 

[noguru]

Catholic countries with a comprehensive Concordat are among the least violent countries in the world, do not allow homosexual marriage nor indoctrination of children.

Which Catholic countries specifically?

 

[Sancocho]

Which Catholic countries specifically?

There are many and all this info is available on the web.

 

[noguru]

There are many and all this info is available on the web.

You made the claim. Are you saying that you had no specific countries in mind when you made that claim?

Lets start with your nation, is Chile (I'm assuming not Cuba) one of these countries?

 

[Sancocho]

You made the claim. Are you saying that you had no specific countries in mind when you made that claim?

Lets start with your nation, is Chile (I'm assuming not Cuba) one of these countries?

I was born in South Carolina actually. Chile does not have a Concordat but still it is a traditionally Catholic country and the social indicators show this. The homicide rate for Chile is 4 while that of the US is 380 +, or 95 times worse.

Unfortunately, as the US and UN spend millions to promote homosexuality some godless Chilean politicians have tried to legalize homosexual unions in spite of the fact that the public does not support it.

 

[The Barbarian]

With all due respect the homicide rate in the US is one of the highest in the world

Always has been. The point is, that it is declining, and has declined markedly from the 1800s or even the 1980s.

Furthermore, our government is committing an all out onslaught to legalize gay unions, prostitution and child sacrifice around the world (before fetal viability is challenged in court).

It's not the purpose of government to stop people from sinning. Gay unions are their business, and God's. Tell them it's wrong, but forcing them to be good is tyranny.

Oh, and abortion?

All that praying, demonstrating at abortion clinics, talking to people? It's working. Political change isn't the way. Government does what it will. But changing minds is far more effective. Trust God, not the republicans, who care only to keep it as a campaign issue.

Granted it's not where we want to be with any of these things, but it's going the way we want it to go.

 

[Sancocho]

Always has been. The point is, that it is declining, and has declined markedly from the 1800s or even the 1980s.



It's not the purpose of government to stop people from sinning. Gay unions are their business, and God's. Tell them it's wrong, but forcing them to be good is tyranny.

Oh, and abortion?

All that praying, demonstrating at abortion clinics, talking to people? It's working. Political change isn't the way. Government does what it will. But changing minds is far more effective. Trust God, not the republicans, who care only to keep it as a campaign issue.

Granted it's not where we want to be with any of these things, but it's going the way we want it to go.

The homicide rate has increased since the 1800's.

The fact that abortions have decreased have had little impact as the US homicide rate is that of a country at war.

I applaud any efforts to reduce child sacrifice. However, if Americans had put the Gospel first instead of nationalism we would have never gotten to this point.

 

[noguru]

I was born in South Carolina actually. Chile does not have a Concordat but still it is a traditionally Catholic country and the social indicators show this. The homicide rate for Chile is 4 while that of the US is 380 +, or 95 times worse.

Unfortunately, as the US and UN spend millions to promote homosexuality some godless Chilean politicians have tried to legalize homosexual unions in spite of the fact that the public does not support it.

So I will ask again. Which countries are you holding as the panacea of less violence that can be used as an example for the world to follow (I suspect you will not give me a straight answer on this)?

Are you claiming that marriage equality is the root cause of violence?

While I was raised Catholic and do respect the scholarly approach by many Catholics, there are some definite issues I have with the RCC. One such issue is their prohibition on divorce. My mother's first husband was an emotionally and physically abusive alcoholic. Being a devout RCC member she had tried to stay with him much longer than I believe was healthy for her and my older brother. The man eventually died of cirrhosis of the liver, but before that he left many scars on the people around him. And let us not brush under the rug the historic issue of Catholic clergy molesting young people in their parishes.

 

[Sancocho]

So I will ask again. Which countries are you holding as the panacea of less violence that can be used as an example for the world to follow (I suspect you will not give me a straight answer on this)?

So I will tell you again, research any country with a Concordat and calculate their homicide rate. Check whether they allow child sacrifice and prohibit Christian education in school.

Are you claiming that marriage equality is the root cause of violence?

Good grief.

While I was raised Catholic and do respect the scholarly approach by many Catholics, there are some definite issues I have with the RCC. One such issue is their prohibition on divorce. My mother's first husband was an emotionally and physically abusive alcoholic. Being a devout RCC member she had tried to stay with him much longer than I believe was healthy for her and my older brother. The man eventually died of cirrhosis of the liver, but before that he left many scars on the people around him. And let us not brush under the rug the historic issue of Catholic clergy molesting young people in their parishes.

Anecdotal evidence is generally used to try to make an argument where statistics fail to support a claim. This has been the bread and butter of the abortion and homosexual rights movement. I would caution a Christian from doing this as it is misleading.

 

[noguru]

So I will tell you again, research any country with a Concordat and calculate their homicide rate. Check whether they allow child sacrifice and prohibit Christian education in school.

So you will not give any examples yourself, you want me to cover the same ground you claim you have already covered.

Good grief.

So no definitive answer from you.

Anecdotal evidence is generally used to try to make an argument where statistics fail to support a claim. This has been the bread and butter of the abortion and homosexual rights movement. I would caution a Christian from doing this as it is misleading.

Again, I want to see your comprehensive statistical analysis that debunks my anecdotal evidence. I am open to learning new things. Especially since you claim you have this subject covered in your research. So will you include that?

 

[noguru]

Here is a Forbes study I found from 2014.

Forbes study on the ranking of nations in respect to violence.

According to the GPI, the ten most peaceful countries, in order, from 2013 to 2014 were Iceland, Denmark, Austria, New Zealand, Switzerland, Finland, Canada, Japan, Belgium, and Norway. The most violent countries were Syria, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Central African Republic, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Pakistan, and North Korea.

I can play this game as long as you want. But if you want to be honest and courageous about the real world evidence, let's do that.

Let's be honest up to this point. You were inaccurate on your first objection to my point about obedience, right? Will you admit that?

 

[Sancocho]

So you will not give any examples yourself, you want me to cover the same ground you claim you have already covered.





So no definitive answer from you.



Again, I want to see your comprehensive statistical analysis that debunks my anecdotal evidence. I am open to learning new things. Especially since you claim you have this subject covered in your research. So will you include that?

I already gave Chile as an example

Please don't put words in my mouth.

As far as your claim about sexual abuse in Catholic Schools you need to do more research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_Report

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/has-media-ignored-sex-abuse-in-school/

 

[noguru]

As far as your claim about sexual abuse in Catholic Schools you need to do more research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_Report

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/has-media-ignored-sex-abuse-in-school/

No debate there. My point was not that sexual abuse is greater in Catholic schools. My point was the Catholic clergy's historical attempts to hide the issue.

Here is an interesting quote from your wiki article:

Half the priests were 35 years of age or younger at the time of the first instance of alleged abuse. Fewer than 7% of the priests were reported to have experienced physical, sexual or emotional abuse as children. Although 19% of the accused priests had alcohol or substance abuse problems, only 9% used drugs or alcohol during the alleged instances of abuse. Almost 70% of the abusive priests were ordained before 1970, after attending pre-Vatican II seminaries or seminaries that had had little time to adapt to the reforms of Vatican II.

 

[noguru]

I already gave Chile as an example

Please don't put words in my mouth.

So you claim Chile ranks up there as one of the least violent nations?

And you are certain that the factor is a concordant between the government and Catholic interpretations of the Gospel?

 

[noguru]

Here is the wiki page about national peace ranking

Chile is 30th, and the US is around 100. But by far the least violent nations are in Scandinavia.

 

[Sancocho]

So you claim Chile ranks up there as one of the least violent nations?

And you are certain that the factor is a concordant between the government and Catholic interpretations of the Gospel?

I never said Chile had a Concordat.

 

[Sancocho]

Here is a Forbes study I found from 2014.

Forbes study on the ranking of nations in respect to violence.



I can play this game as long as you want. But if you want to be honest and courageous about the real world evidence, let's do that.

Let's be honest up to this point. You were inaccurate on your first objection to my point about obedience, right? Will you admit that?

I'm sorry but this does not include abortion which is a homicide per the scientific and lexical definition.

Regarding obedience, the Catholic countries that are obedient to the Gospel are less violent than others. The US nor Europe do not qualify as obedient countries, as they have replaced obedience to the Word with Nationalism.

 

[noguru]

I'm sorry but this does not include abortion which is a homicide per the scientific and lexical definition.

Oh, I see. So if you made abortion illegal in all the world, you think the countries would rank differently? You think if Iceland, as one example, did not allow abortions then it would fall down to the bottom of the list?

 

[noguru]

Are you saying that the only countries you accept as peaceful are those in which abortion is illegal?

You still have not shown a logical connection between marriage equality and the percentage of violence in a country. I think gay people are the least likely to have an abortion also, do you agree?

 

[noguru]

Regarding obedience, the Catholic countries that are obedient to the Gospel are less violent than others. The US nor Europe do not qualify as obedient countries, as they have replaced obedience to the Word with Nationalism.

Where are your statistics for this claim?

My original point was not your definition of "obedience", which you have yet to clarify. The gospel and "obedience" to that is interpreted in many different ways. If you would like to be concise and precisely define what you mean by "obedience to the Gospel" I would love to hear your ideas on that.