I'm Starting To Like This Trump Fellow

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They can, just not consistently.
Of course... because if they stick strictly to the material, they have NO way to have any moral order.

It is only, as you've said many times, when they covertly sneak in some God that they can have any morality at all. And they have to do it covertly, because otherwise they are clearly admitting the void that is their belief system.
 

commonsense

Active member
This is a typical leftist tactic, where they push and push and push for "progressive" advancements further to the left (such as increased importation of foreigners to replace the people they hate for more votes) and then when the right pushes back, they hurl insults and ask if they're "pent up" or "angry" or "hateful," then say "just let it go."

We're not falling for it.

The destruction of our American culture must stop, even if it hurts your feelings.
My feelings aren't hurt. Biden should have maintained order at the border. Still, you'd think a country like yours, rich, smart, powerful, could fix the problem with all the gratuitous cruelty.
 

Derf

Well-known member
My feelings aren't hurt. Biden should have maintained order at the border. Still, you'd think a country like yours, rich, smart, powerful, could fix the problem with all the gratuitous cruelty.
Not when the opposition pays people to protest and possibly get killed. The reason it didn't happen under Biden is because Biden gave them what they wanted. Which is not a good government policy.
 

commonsense

Active member
I can use the scientific method to determine that something is false (the elimination of bad ideas) through the examination of evidence and usage of reason.
Wrong. Even if you could eliminate all the bad ideas you can think of, it doesn't mean there aren't hundreds of other ideas that you completely didn't think of to consider at all. Can't prove a negative.
The central claim of Christianity is that if Christ did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is false. The corollary to that is that if Christ DID rise from the dead, then Christianity is true and all other religions including atheism are false.
Wrong. If Christ didn't rise from the dead, that indeed proves Christianity false. If Christ did rise from the dead, it doesn't necessarily prove Christianity true. Christ could have rose for another, completely unrelated reason, unrelated to Christianity. Anyway, it's difficult to assert that modern day Christianity has much in common with first century Christianity when nothing was recorded for decades after the apparent death of Jesus. Right?
The Bible is the compilation of evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It establishes that Christ did, in fact, rise from the dead.

Therefore Christianity is true.

Therefore all other religions including atheism are false.
Sherlock Holmes books establish the fact that Sherlock Holmes was an historical person. He was an amazing sleuth. Therefore any person denying the reality of Sherlock Holmes is false.
That includes Islam.
That includes Norse Mythology.
And and it especially includes the claim that God does not exist.
That includes Hercule Poirot.
That includes Inspector Clouseau.
My faith is founded on reason.

Your faith (for that is indeed what it is) is founded on the rejection of the One Who Is Reason.
Well you brought it up, but yeah, I'm pleased for you.
 

commonsense

Active member
Yes!

Negative claim: There is no largest prime number.

The claim was proven in Euclid’s Elements by contradiction. Any supposed largest prime can be used to generate a larger one.


You would do well to take a course on logic and perhaps a Philosophy 101 class. There are many available free of charge online. It might teach you something about how to think clearly rather than relying so heavily on goofy clichés that you heard someone say when you were a teenager, but that you don't actually understand.
No!

Negative Claim: There are no elves living in Canada. Prove it professor. At least explain how you would prove it if you could. Lordy!
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Of course... because if they stick strictly to the material, they have NO way to have any moral order.

It is only, as you've said many times, when they covertly sneak in some God that they can have any morality at all. And they have to do it covertly, because otherwise they are clearly admitting the void that is their belief system.
Rand came the closest that I've seen to having a coherent ethics. Her standard was life. More specifically, the life of a rational being.

As far as that goes, it's entirely correct! Her error was in thinking that human beings were the only rational being in existence. That, and she made no effort to account for the fact that man is rational apart from it being an artifact of biological evolution. She certainly did not make an effort to account for why rationality is truth-tracking in an ultimate sense within a purely impersonal universe beyond its survival utility.

But survival utility only explains why reason is useful. It does not automatically explain why reason carries binding moral authority. If reason is just a survival mechanism produced by impersonal processes, why is violating it morally wrong rather than merely imprudent? Why is the sociopath who succeeds not simply playing the game differently?
 

Right Divider

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Rand came the closest that I've seen to having a coherent ethics. Her standard was life. More specifically, the life of a rational being.

As far as that goes, it's entirely correct! Her error was in thinking that human beings were the only rational being in existence. That, and she made no effort to account for the fact that man is rational apart from it being an artifact of biological evolution. She certainly did not make an effort to account for why rationality is truth-tracking in an ultimate sense within a purely impersonal universe beyond its survival utility.

But survival utility only explains why reason is useful. It does not automatically explain why reason carries binding moral authority. If reason is just a survival mechanism produced by impersonal processes, why is violating it morally wrong rather than merely imprudent? Why is the sociopath who succeeds not simply playing the game differently?
Indeed, as I'm sure that we can both agree, she snuck in God, even perhaps unknowingly.

I'm reminded of the saying, you can't get an ought from an is.
 

JudgeRightly

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Saying it doesn't make it so.

Even if you could eliminate all the bad ideas you can think of, it doesn't mean there aren't hundreds of other ideas that you completely didn't think of to consider at all. Can't prove a negative.

Who said anything about eliminating "all the bad ideas"?

If i can prove that exclusive proposition A is true, then all propositions !A are thus falsified, by definition.


Saying it doesn't make it so.

If Christ didn't rise from the dead, that indeed proves Christianity false. If Christ did rise from the dead, it doesn't necessarily prove Christianity true.

Yes, actually, it does, because if Christ rose from the dead, then Jesus is who He says He is, that being God in the flesh.

Meaning God does exist.
And thus what He said, that He alone is God, and beside Him is no other god, is also true.

Christianity is an exclusive faith.

It is exclusive of all other religions (yes, in spite of some who try to claim otherwise).

Christ could have rose for another, completely unrelated reason, unrelated to Christianity.

You would have to demonstrate how that would be possible. Anyone can make claims like that one. But until you demonstrate how, that's all they are. And claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

He was crucified.

He was in the tomb for three nights and three days, and the tomb was sealed by the authorities, and guards were positioned outside the of it.

His heart had burst, as indicated by the water that gushed out of his side when pierced.

The dead do not come back to life, except through God's power.

If you want to claim otherwise, where is your evidence.

Anyway, it's difficult to assert that modern day Christianity has much in common with first century Christianity when nothing was recorded for decades after the apparent death of Jesus. Right?

So?

You cannot ignore the fact that immediately following Christ's resurrection, tens, hundreds, thousands, tens and hundreds of thousands of people's lives were drastically changed as a result of their faith.

That's evidence.

And that's ignoring other extra-biblical historical documents.

Sherlock Holmes books establish the fact that Sherlock Holmes was an historical person. He was an amazing sleuth. Therefore any person denying the reality of Sherlock Holmes is false.

That includes Hercule Poirot.
That includes Inspector Clouseau.

Appealing to fictional stories that have never claimed to be real doesn't work here. None of these characters exist except within the fictional settings that were created by their authors.

The Bible on the other hand does claim to be real, and presents evidence for its veracity that has been confirmed time and time again.

Well you brought it up, but yeah, I'm pleased for you.

I said:

The single best argument for God's existence is that without Him, you have no argument.

I meant that literally.

You don't even have the justification for the tools you would use to make the argument that God does not exist, because as I said, you have to borrow them from the Christian worldview.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Wrong. Even if you could eliminate all the bad ideas you can think of, it doesn't mean there aren't hundreds of other ideas that you completely didn't think of to consider at all. Can't prove a negative.

Wrong. If Christ didn't rise from the dead, that indeed proves Christianity false. If Christ did rise from the dead, it doesn't necessarily prove Christianity true. Christ could have rose for another, completely unrelated reason, unrelated to Christianity. Anyway, it's difficult to assert that modern day Christianity has much in common with first century Christianity when nothing was recorded for decades after the apparent death of Jesus. Right?

Sherlock Holmes books establish the fact that Sherlock Holmes was an historical person. He was an amazing sleuth. Therefore any person denying the reality of Sherlock Holmes is false.

That includes Hercule Poirot.
That includes Inspector Clouseau.

Well you brought it up, but yeah, I'm pleased for you.
Notice how naturally this fool appeals to negative claims both as and immediately after stating so boldly that you cannot prove a negative, which is itself a negative claim, by the way. If it’s true, it can’t be proven. If it can be proven, it’s false. The statement cleanly defeats itself.

How is it even possible to be this self-conflicted? How is it that anyone can make a statement as if the statement that immediately preceding it never came out of their mouths or had even touched their mind. It seems like such a person would sometimes shut off their car in order to make a right turn, or clap their hands in an effort to tie their shoe. How does a man, this incapable of rational thought, keep from injuring himself?

As for this ridiculous statement about the resurrection not being proof of Christianity, historical reasoning does not require proving all alternative possibilities false. It requires identifying the explanation with the greatest explanatory power. An unspecified “other reason” for the resurrection explains nothing. It's merely a grasp of straw that carries no weight at all. The fact is that Jesus claimed to be God! The proof of that claim was the resurrection, full stop. Belief that Jesus is God and that He rose from the dead is the core doctrine of Christianity. There cannot be any "completely unrelated reason" - by definition!
 
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