ECT "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH"---not "churchES"

[jamie]

Therefore, you do in fact hold to the two central and defining precepts of Protestantism (Post #148), and thus you are indeed a Protestant. Your claim to the contrary, then, simply falls flat.

Paul obviously believed those two things, so was Paul a Protestant or was he just a Pharisee as he testified?

 

[Cruciform]

Paul obviously believed those two things...

St. Paul believed and taught neither sola scriptura nor sola fide. Neither idea was held by anyone in the first millennium-and-a-half of Christian history, when these doctrines were invented by the 16th-century Protestant "reformers." Why would you believe and accept opinions that were completely unheard of in the Christian Church for its first fifteen centuries?

:think:​

 

[republicanchick]

Because it turns in that direction due to your willful ignorance, elitism and otherwise, irrational disposition.

this makes no sense

and anyone who loves Jesus is interested in the FIRST Christian Church... and also will consider the point that He may have (Gee, do ya think?) established only ONE




++++​

 

[kiwimacahau]

I must simply state that Jesus never spoke about an institutional structure as it has become, He spoke of a family of friends meeting together in loving service to himself and each other. When the nascent church became part of the structure of empire much was gained but more was lost.

Let me simply add that the RCC is no better or worse than any other ecclesiastical group.

 

[Cruciform]

I must simply state that Jesus never spoke about an institutional structure as it has become...

Actually, this is what the Scriptures teach regarding the Christian Church.

Let me simply add that the RCC is no better or worse than any other ecclesiastical group.

Given that the Catholic Church is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself---and against which he declared that the gates of Hades would never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19)---it follows that the catholic Church is indeed "better than any other [merely man-made] ecclesiastical group."



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[jamie]

St. Paul believed and taught neither sola scriptura nor sola fide. Neither idea was held by anyone in the first millennium-and-a-half of Christian history, when these doctrines were invented by the 16th-century Protestant "reformers." Why would you believe and accept opinions that were completely unheard of in the Christian Church for its first fifteen centuries?

Paul was not a 16th century Protestant reformer. Paul was a Pharisee rabbi who believed Torah which prohibited additions or deletions.

 

[Cruciform]

Paul was not a 16th century Protestant reformer. Paul was a Pharisee rabbi who believed Torah which prohibited additions or deletions.

St. Paul---both as a Jew and as a follower of Jesus Christ---accepted and taught reliance upon both written (Scripture) and unwritten (Tradition) Divine Revelation. See, for example: 2 Thess. 2:15; 1 Cor. 11:2, etc.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[jamie]

St. Paul---both as a Jew and as a follower of Jesus Christ---accepted and taught reliance upon both written (Scripture) and unwritten (Tradition) Divine Revelation.

We know Paul was Torah observant so were these traditions you refer to Catholic traditions?

Passover for example was a long term tradition.

 

[Cruciform]

We know Paul was Torah observant so were these traditions you refer to Catholic traditions?

Jews held (and hold) to both the written Torah and the unwritten or oral Torah (oral tradition). Catholic Christians, likewise, hold to a written (Scripture) and unwritten (Tradition) Divine Revelation. In short, God's Word is comprised of both Scripture and Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[jamie]

Jews held (and hold) to both the written Torah and the unwritten or oral Torah (oral tradition).

The oral traditions of the Jews are recorded in in the Talmud and Mishna.

Where are the Catholic traditions recorded?

 

[Cruciform]

The oral traditions of the Jews are recorded in in the Talmud and Mishna.

Nevertheless, they were initially delivered and communicated orally, and not in the form of Scripture.

Where are the Catholic traditions recorded?

Christian Tradition "transmits in its entirety the Word [message] of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles [i.e., the bishops] so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching [verbally]" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 81).

In short, Tradition is communicated in and through the authoritative teachings of the Catholic Church which are promulgated by the Church's Magisterium (that is, its official teaching office made up of the body of bishops in communion with the Pope).

Some of the Church's teaching Tradition has been recorded in various formal ecclesial documents, such as conciliar writings, papal encyclicals, and perhaps most accessibly, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[jamie]

Nevertheless, they were initially delivered and communicated orally, and not in the form of Scripture.

Jesus said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9)

 

[Cruciform]

Jesus said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9)

Perfectly describes the myriad recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects in existence today, with more being concocted every week.

 

[6days]

Perfectly describes the myriad recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects in existence today, with more being concocted every week.

You are confusing denominations and organizations with Christ's church.The body of Christ is people who trust in Him as their Lord.

 

[HisServant]

John & therefore God saw a plethora of churches (the 7 in Revelation).. he spoke to them individually and never even alluded to there being a 'mother' church in Rome that they should seek guidance from.

From this it is obvious that all churches are to stand alone and fellowship with others and not submit to the authority of others. Churches are communities of the called.

 

[turbosixx]

You are confusing denominations and organizations with Christ's church.The body of Christ is people who trust in Him as their Lord.

John & therefore God saw a plethora of churches (the 7 in Revelation).. he spoke to them individually and never even alluded to there being a 'mother' church in Rome that they should seek guidance from.

From this it is obvious that all churches are to stand alone and fellowship with others and not submit to the authority of others. Churches are communities of the called.

That's the way I see it, all you need to establish a congregation of Christ's church is to follow the NT.

 

[jamie]

Perfectly describes the myriad recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects in existence today, with more being concocted every week.

Jesus is a teacher of Judaism and he established a new sect of Judaism. However, Judaism existed long before he was born.

 

[Cruciform]

You are confusing denominations and organizations with Christ's church.The body of Christ is people who trust in Him as their Lord.

The particularly novel ecclesiology that you've been taught by your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect is noted. By contrast, this is what Scripture and Christ's one historic Catholic Church has always taught about the Church.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

John & therefore God saw a plethora of churches (the 7 in Revelation).. he spoke to them individually and never even alluded to there being a 'mother' church in Rome that they should seek guidance from.

 

[oatmeal]

Now go ahead and post your proof for this bare assertion.

Back to Post #5.

Back to your OP.

Where is your proof of your assertion?

The same verses you use to support your theology, I use to support mine.

Since your devalue the scripture that Jesus lived, and taught, you lose.

In your organization, the pope and tradition take precedence over scripture.

John 17:17