The law is undergirded by grace, but that doesn't mean that only grace will save under the law. You still have to keep the law under the law.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
- Thread starter xfrodobagginsx
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The law is undergirded by grace, but that doesn't mean that only grace will save under the law. You still have to keep the law under the law.
My thought....so what.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Paul is pretty clear. We go to him. This is not the second coming. He lands on the Mount of Olives. It splits open. You know the prophecy. Or maybe you don't.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Again, the departure of the church is before the 70th week, before the man of sin is revealed. We have nothing to do with it.
Everlasting means everlasting.
Bladerunner
Active member
we meet again.
The gathering together will be in the air..The Rapture is an event in which the Lord never comes back to earth. No one except His own (his Sheep) will hear Him, no one will see Him except His own. and it can happen at ANY time...
When Jesus' feet touch both mountains He is officially in the "second Advent" Rem, He will come back to earth. Then after a little while, He rides a white horse from heaven for the main feature, the battle of Armageddon. Rem, the Rapture is an event that will happen. It carries no judgement for those who He carries away have already been judged. This is unlike the second coming where there will a great judgement on the people of the earth, where in one word out of His mouth the Battle of Armageddon will be over for all will no longer be alive. Of course reading Revelation tells us that the church is spoken of around 18 times in the first three chapters. After Rev 4:5 (at the throne room in heaven), there are no mentions of the church still on the earth until chapter 19: 7-10.
agree
Bladerunner
Active member
Yes, it does mean that by the Grace of GOD can one be saved. The Laws of Moses all 630 of them are impossible to adheare to by anyone except Jesus Christ. If one remains under the law, they will perish. having said that, those who are true believers will not stray for His laws are installed within that soul and body never to change again. For those who profess to be saved and then beat up their wife or children (example only) are and were not apart of the His Church, His Body, His Bride. They are not of us.
xfrodobagginsx
Active member
The fact that the Gospel of Grace was given, Israel rejected Christ as a Nation, Israel was scattered into all nations as a result and could no longer perform sacrifices because they were taken out if their land and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Paul said there was no difference between Jew and Gentile under Grace. At the end of his life, Peter referred the Jews to Pauls writings.
Also, several verses referring to the times of the gentiles and how Gid woukd take out if the Gentiles a people for His name. (The Church)
Right Divider
Body part
Like @Clete said, stop repeating your position and SUPPORT it!
All of the things that you mentioned happened long before 70AD.
Right Divider
Body part
I'm glad that @Clete mentioned the prophecy of Luke 13:6-9 (I was going to mention it, but he beat me to it). That scripture clearly shows that God gave Israel one more year to repent and believe in the Messiah. They failed and it was at that time that God called Paul with a NEW dispensation. God did NOT wait until 70 AD to make this move.
Not a single thing you've cited here happened after or even anywhere near the year 70AD.
And, once again, Peter DID NOT refer the Jews to Paul's writings. He mentioned them but that isn't even remotely the same thing.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Bladerunner
Active member
what point is that?
Try reading my post again.
Bladerunner
Active member
The law is undergirded by grace, but that doesn't mean that only grace will save under the law. You still have to keep the law under the law.
Are you are speaking of the commandments that Jesus gave while He was on earth,
Now find where that goes against what you said in post #140.
No, I'm talking about what you said in post #140. Do try to keep the conversation in mind.
Bladerunner
Active member
you are saying that to be saved by the grace of God, one must obey His laws. where I say that by the Grace of GOD is one saved and there is nothing that man has or can do to initiate or fulfill that grace to its final ending. Look to Rom 8:29-31.
Bladerunner
Active member
surely not James 2:21 and Abraham
I'm going to take a crack at this. Please don't make me regret doing so...
Israel is the Bride of Christ, we are NOT Israel, we are the Body of Christ. These are not the same thing. Thinking they are the same thing leads to confusion and errors. Errors such as denial of the rapture, for example.
(I find out several minutes after reading this first line of yours that you do not deny the rapture. I'm leaving the above intact because I cannot reconcile the contradiction.)
Why is Abraham and not Moses pointed to as the father of the whole household of faith? Because God entered into TWO covenants with Abraham. In the first Abraham sacrificed a whole bunch of animals, splitting them in two and placing half on one side and half on the other. Then God put Abraham into a deep sleep and passed through the sacrifice ALONE. This is the covenant of grace. Abraham had no terms to meet in this covenant because he was unconscious when it was consummated.
In the second, the covenant of circumcision, I can assure you that not only was Abraham FULLY awake but the covenant had a very distinct work of the flesh THAT WAS REQUIRED! Moses comes along and, under the same covenant, adds the Ten Commandments and from there the entire rest of the law was added, all of which was just as required as circumcision, which came first because it, being a physical cutting off of the flesh, is symbolic of the whole law, it being a cutting off of our fleshly desires. We can know for maybe just shy of a thousand reasons that obedience to the law was required but what has to be the clearest proof is the fact that God was coming to kill Moses himself because he had failed to circumcise his son. That sort of makes obedience to the law come off as being required to me!
Much later, Israel, the Circumcision, the People of the Law, were cut off (see Romans 7-9) leaving only the covenant of Grace. God turned away from Israel and toward the gentiles through Paul with the Dispensation of Grace forming the Body of Christ which functions purely and entirely on the basis of grace through faith apart from works. A point that is so different from the Law that the Twelve had a hard time getting it to sink in. Paul was sent to Israel by God to explain his gospel to them and then later, Paul, when the men from James showed up, had to get in Peter's face in defense of the liberty Paul's followers had under grace.
Right off the bat the errant premise presents itself. Which is it, Bladerunner, His body or His Bride? I can't be both (an analogy made by Paul not withstanding, by the way.)
Israel is the Bride of Christ, we are NOT Israel, we are the Body of Christ. These are not the same thing. Thinking they are the same thing leads to confusion and errors. Errors such as denial of the rapture, for example.
(I find out several minutes after reading this first line of yours that you do not deny the rapture. I'm leaving the above intact because I cannot reconcile the contradiction.)
This is false - as stated. It is grace that kept Adam and Eve alive to produce the human race and it is true, albeit irrelevant that Abraham didn't know the law of Moses but lots and lots of people did and do know the law of Moses!
Why is Abraham and not Moses pointed to as the father of the whole household of faith? Because God entered into TWO covenants with Abraham. In the first Abraham sacrificed a whole bunch of animals, splitting them in two and placing half on one side and half on the other. Then God put Abraham into a deep sleep and passed through the sacrifice ALONE. This is the covenant of grace. Abraham had no terms to meet in this covenant because he was unconscious when it was consummated.
In the second, the covenant of circumcision, I can assure you that not only was Abraham FULLY awake but the covenant had a very distinct work of the flesh THAT WAS REQUIRED! Moses comes along and, under the same covenant, adds the Ten Commandments and from there the entire rest of the law was added, all of which was just as required as circumcision, which came first because it, being a physical cutting off of the flesh, is symbolic of the whole law, it being a cutting off of our fleshly desires. We can know for maybe just shy of a thousand reasons that obedience to the law was required but what has to be the clearest proof is the fact that God was coming to kill Moses himself because he had failed to circumcise his son. That sort of makes obedience to the law come off as being required to me!
Much later, Israel, the Circumcision, the People of the Law, were cut off (see Romans 7-9) leaving only the covenant of Grace. God turned away from Israel and toward the gentiles through Paul with the Dispensation of Grace forming the Body of Christ which functions purely and entirely on the basis of grace through faith apart from works. A point that is so different from the Law that the Twelve had a hard time getting it to sink in. Paul was sent to Israel by God to explain his gospel to them and then later, Paul, when the men from James showed up, had to get in Peter's face in defense of the liberty Paul's followers had under grace.
So which is it, Bladerunner? Is there a rapture or not? Just what is it you think the rapture is if no one is removed from the Earth? Just were are we going to be after we get raptured?
That gospel will be practically identical to that preached by Peter in Acts 2...
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
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