How does one determine, using the scientific method, that the earth is billions of years old?

[iouae]

The world's deepest manmade borehole

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Superdeep_Borehole

The Kola Superdeep Borehole (Russian: Кольская сверхглубокая скважина, romanized: Kol'skaya sverkhglubokaya skvazhina) SG-3[note 1] is the result of a scientific drilling project of the Soviet Union in the Pechengsky District, near the Russian border with Norway, on the Kola Peninsula. The project attempted to drill as deeply as possible into the Earth's crust.

Drilling began on 24 May 1970 using the Uralmash-4E, and later the Uralmash-15000 series drilling rig, and it became the deepest manmade hole in history in 1979....

In 1983, the drill passed 12,000 metres (39,000 ft)...

To scientists, one of the more fascinating findings to emerge from this well is that no transition from granite to basalt was found at the depth of about seven kilometres (4.3 mi), where the velocity of seismic waves has a discontinuity. Instead, the change in the seismic wave velocity is caused by a metamorphic transition in the granite rock. In addition, the rock at that depth had been thoroughly fractured and was saturated with water, which was surprising. This water, unlike surface water, must have come from deep-crust minerals and had been unable to reach the surface because of a layer of impermeable rock.[12]

 

[Right Divider]

The world's deepest manmade borehole

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Superdeep_Borehole

The Kola Superdeep Borehole (Russian: Кольская сверхглубокая скважина, romanized: Kol'skaya sverkhglubokaya skvazhina) SG-3[note 1] is the result of a scientific drilling project of the Soviet Union in the Pechengsky District, near the Russian border with Norway, on the Kola Peninsula. The project attempted to drill as deeply as possible into the Earth's crust.

Drilling began on 24 May 1970 using the Uralmash-4E, and later the Uralmash-15000 series drilling rig, and it became the deepest manmade hole in history in 1979....

In 1983, the drill passed 12,000 metres (39,000 ft)...

To scientists, one of the more fascinating findings to emerge from this well is that no transition from granite to basalt was found at the depth of about seven kilometres (4.3 mi), where the velocity of seismic waves has a discontinuity. Instead, the change in the seismic wave velocity is caused by a metamorphic transition in the granite rock. In addition, the rock at that depth had been thoroughly fractured and was saturated with water, which was surprising. This water, unlike surface water, must have come from deep-crust minerals and had been unable to reach the surface because of a layer of impermeable rock.[12]

What is the POINT of this post?

 

[JudgeRightly]

What is the POINT of this post?

Sounds like they found a chamber, and in that chamber was a "Walt Brown was here!" sign!

More evidence for the HPT!

 

[iouae]

What is the POINT of this post?

Fountains of the deep.

 

[Right Divider]

Fountains of the deep.

Yes, what about it?

 

[iouae]

God did not create thorns at all? So how did thorns come into existence?

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Except that this was the first time in scripture that thorns are even mentioned, even indirectly.

Thorns are painful, they hurt. they can even draw blood if they penetrate deep enough.

That's not "very good."

God created a universe where there was nothing to harm His creations. Why do you insist otherwise?

God made the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and God allowed Satan into Eden.
God cast them out of Eden to experience evil

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God knows how to make spirit beings who live forever and cannot suffer in the flesh.

But the moment you create a MORTAL fleshly being, it will experience pain by for instance stubbing its toe, or stumbling off a cliff.
Look at all the extreme sports. Humans like to push things to the edge, like to climb Everest, walk to the poles, row the Pacific.

Everyone misunderstands Paul.
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

People think that not even a leaf withered and fell to the ground before Eve ate the fruit.

This is talking about HUMAN death. And yes, there was no HUMAN death before there were humans.

And sin is NOT contagious, and we do not die because of Adams sin, but because of our own sin "for that all have sinned".

So if Adam did not sin, then iouae or JR or RD would have sinned. It was inevitable that someone would sin. God is not caught by surprise. Jesus died from the foundation of the world, meaning the moment God decided to make mankind, God knew man would sin.

 

[iouae]

The estimate for Earth's age is based on radiometric dating of fragments from the Canyon Diabolic iron meteorite. For more details visit the site. And for the history of Black Americans visit the link.

I wonder why they would use a meteorite from outer space to date the earth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So why couldn't He have made plants with thorns (or however the thorns came about) when God created plants on day 3?

God made the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil,

Yes He did.

And He put it in the middle of the garden.

and God allowed Satan into Eden.

Why do you assume that Satan wasn't already allowed in Eden?

God cast them out of Eden to experience evil

How does that make any sense?

When Adam and Eve sinned, they already experienced evil, because sin is, by definition, evil!

They wouldn't have needed to be kicked out to experience it.

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God knows how to make spirit beings who live forever and cannot suffer in the flesh.

But the moment you create a MORTAL fleshly being, it will experience pain by for instance stubbing its toe, or stumbling off a cliff.

Not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about losing life or limb due to something in the environment.

Stubbing one's toe can hardly be considered harm, and I highly doubt Adam or Eve were clumsy in the slightest.

There likely wouldn't have been any cliffs high enough to be injured from.

Again, God called His creation very good, and the way He desgined the earth wasn't anywhere near what we see today, because of the Flood.

Look at all the extreme sports. Humans like to push things to the edge, like to climb Everest, walk to the poles, row the Pacific.

Extreme sports, etc, are done on an earth that is nowhere near as "good" as it was immediately after God said it was "very good."

Everyone misunderstands Paul.

Because you say so?

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

People think that not even a leaf withered and fell to the ground before Eve ate the fruit.

Not anyone here, to be sure. Defend your position, don't attack straw men.

There was no death prior to the fall. Romans 5:12 is clear.

Why do you assert that there was death and destruction prior to Adam's fall?

This is talking about HUMAN death.

Why do you assert that it's only talking about human death?

And yes, there was no HUMAN death before there were humans.

Then you need to explain why it was significant enough to be mentioned that God made tunics of skin and clothed Adam and Eve with them.

Question: How much time between Adam and Eve's creation, and Adam's fall, do you think there was?

And sin is NOT contagious, and we do not die because of Adams sin, but because of our own sin "for that all have sinned".

No argument here.

So if Adam did not sin, then iouae or JR or RD would have sinned.

Not necessarily.

It was inevitable that someone would sin.

Why?

God is not caught by surprise.

God is certainly a brilliant planner, but why do you assume that people can't do things that God never planned for, or even thought of?

Jesus died from the foundation of the world,

Wrong. But that's a topic for a different thread.

meaning the moment God decided to make mankind, God knew man would sin.

No, God didn't/doesn't know the future.

But again, not a topic for this thread.

 

[iouae]

So why couldn't He have made plants with thorns (or however the thorns came about) when God created plants on day 3?

He did - Eden was an exception - it was a cultivated garden.

Why do you assume that Satan wasn't already allowed in Eden?

Because Satan does not belong or fit in Eden.

How does that make any sense?

When Adam and Eve sinned, they already experienced evil, because sin is, by definition, evil!

They wouldn't have needed to be kicked out to experience it.

They knew it mentally when they sinned, but biblical knowledge means to experience and live it.

Not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about losing life or limb due to something in the environment.

Stubbing one's toe can hardly be considered harm, and I highly doubt Adam or Eve were clumsy in the slightest.

There likely wouldn't have been any cliffs high enough to be injured from.

There was a river they could have fallen into and drowned. Remember the 4 rivers that surrounded Eden. There is always a way to die. Someone could have got angry and hit the other with a rock, like Cain did Abel.

Again, God called His creation very good, and the way He desgined the earth wasn't anywhere near what we see today, because of the Flood.

It has always been like earth is today, except for the damage done by human encroachment.
The geologic column tells us what earth has always been like. That's the danger of ignoring science which is a source of truth.

Extreme sports, etc, are done on an earth that is nowhere near as "good" as it was immediately after God said it was "very good."

Eating of the Tree of Knowledge was an extreme sport.

There was no death prior to the fall. Romans 5:12 is clear.

If you did not ignore science and the geologic column, you would see that in every layer of the earth, there are predators and parasites.

Why do you assert that there was death and destruction prior to Adam's fall?

Why do you assert that it's only talking about human death?

Because the fossil record shows there has always been death. Fossils are all dead.

Taking science truth and combining it with Paul's truth, we see what Paul meant. And when Paul talks about by one MAN death entered, he is talking of human death. Did Adam not pull out a carrot and cause its death?

Then you need to explain why it was significant enough to be mentioned that God made tunics of skin and clothed Adam and Eve with them.

There you go, there is death.

And in fact Cain slaying Abel was the first human death, not Adam's death. So by one man Cain, death entered the world.

Question: How much time between Adam and Eve's creation, and Adam's fall, do you think there was?

Months, not years since Adam and Eve had had no kids yet. Why?

God is certainly a brilliant planner, but why do you assume that people can't do things that God never planned for, or even thought of?

Did I say that?

No, God didn't/doesn't know the future.

Agreed.

God has power to determine that His will be done, but He does not know the future in exact detail.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Because Satan does not belong or fit in Eden.

Why?

They knew it mentally when they sinned, but biblical knowledge means to experience and live it.

But that's not why God kicked them out of the garden.

There was a river they could have fallen into and drowned.

Again, God created Adam and Eve "very good." They wouldn't have been clumsy enough to fall into the river and drown.

Remember the 4 rivers that surrounded Eden.

No.

I know of a single river that flows out of the garden, and then splits into four rivers that water the earth, but I don't know of any rivers that surrounded Eden.

Such would be physically impossible, since Eden was on a mountain.

There is always a way to die.

True.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was one such way.

It was a way out of God's presense, death.

Someone could have got angry and hit the other with a rock,

For what reason would Adam and Eve have gotten angry?

They were in God's perfectly created garden, sinless, and in perfect harmony with their Creator and all the other animals He had created.

like Cain did Abel.

Stolen concept fallacy.

You can't use a concept while ignoring, contradicting or denying the validity of the concepts on which it logically and genetically depends, in this case, that being that Cain and Abel were conceived in and lived in a post-sin world, meaning they, as descendants of Adam, had a sin-ful nature.

It has always been like earth is today,

No, it hasn't, and I have already presented evidence that shows that the earth has experienced a literally earth shattering catastrophe. You, so far, have ignored it.

except for the damage done by human encroachment.

Humans haven't damaged the earth in the slightest compared to the Flood.

The geologic column tells us what earth has always been like.

Begging the question.

I have shown you that the geologic column was laid down by flood-waters. All you've done is repeatedly assert that the geologic column shows millions of years.

That's the danger of ignoring science which is a source of truth.

Says the one ignoring science in favor of his own beliefs.

Eating of the Tree of Knowledge was an extreme sport.

No, it's not.

If you did not ignore science and the geologic column,

Where have I done so?

Your repeated assertions are not science, only assertions.

The geologic column was laid down by the Flood, not millions of years. I've shown you this.

you would see that in every layer of the earth, there are predators and parasites.

Because they were all killed in the Flood.

Again, it's literally a case of you missing the forest for the trees. You're so focused on the layers in the geologic column that you've completely ignored the geologic column itself.

Because the fossil record shows there has always been death.

No, it doesn't, because the "fossil record" was laid down AFTER the fall of man, not before it. It was laid down by the Flood.

Fossils are all dead.

Yes. And?

Taking science truth and combining it with Paul's truth,

Truth is truth. There aren't different kinds of truth.

we see what Paul meant.

You clearly don't.

And when Paul talks about by one MAN death entered, he is talking of human death.

What he's talking about is separation from God.

Physical death is separation of body and soul/spirit.
Spiritual death is separation of man and God.

God told Adam "in the day you eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, you shall surely die."

Guess what happened, Adam ate of the tree, and man was separated from God.

Did Adam not pull out a carrot and cause its death?

No, because plants aren't "alive" in the sense that the Bible is referring to.

“Whatever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who hunts and catches any animal or bird that may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust;for it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.’ - Leviticus 17:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus17:13-14&version=NKJV

There you go, there is death.

AFTER Adam fell. Not before. Again, YOU need to explain why it was so significant for God to kill an animal and use its skin to clothe Adam and Eve that it was recorded in the Bible. Remember, Adam and Eve were not clothed before they sinned.

And in fact Cain slaying Abel was the first human death,

Yes, but it's not what Paul is referring to.

not Adam's death.

So you'r saying that God lied when He told Adam "on the day you eat of it, you shall surely die" regarding the fruit of the Tree?

So by one man Cain, death entered the world.

Nope. Cain is not who Paul is talking about, because Cain is not the progenitor of all men.

Death came to ALL men, not just descendants of Cain.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. - Romans 5:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:12-16&version=NKJV

Months, not years since Adam and Eve had had no kids yet. Why?

Months?

You have Eve, the most beautiful woman on the planet, and Adam who was married to her, both of whom are perfectly (literally) healthy human beings, and you're going to say they waited months to have sex?

Friday, the 13th.

Eve would have been at the right time of the month in her cycle to have children.

Adam and Eve likely fell on Friday the Thirteenth, 13 days after God began creating, and 6 days after God ceased creating.

RSR: When Did Adam and Eve Sin? | KGOV.com

kgov.com

They didn't even last a week.

I assert that the reason you said "months" instead of "days" is that you're so convinced of long periods of timie that it has actually affected the way you think, in that you think things took longer than they actually did.

Did I say that?

You said, "God is not caught by surprise," implying that people cannot do things that God never planned for, or even thought of, since in order for Him to be surprised about it, He would have to be unaware of it even being a possibility.[/QUOTE]

 

[Clete]

Can anyone provide information on the scientific method used to determine that the earth is billions of years old? Thanks.

Let me guess...

After 550 posts, the answer so far is, "No."

 

[iouae]

Adam and Eve likely fell on Friday the Thirteenth, 13 days after God began creating, and 6 days after God ceased creating.

RSR: When Did Adam and Eve Sin? | KGOV.com

kgov.com

You said, "God is not caught by surprise," implying that people cannot do things that God never planned for, or even thought of, since in order for Him to be surprised about it, He would have to be unaware of it even being a possibility.

I don't know when they "fell".

But let's take what you say as the gospel truth.

Mankind's time in Eden was short compared to human history.

Thus all fossils were formed during a time of "fallenness".

That is why we have predators and parasites littering the whole fossil record.

Let's assume that God knew there was a possibility of mankind "falling".

And the gospel says that all things made were made by Jesus.

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Thus God made the world the way it is. There is nobody else to thank/blame.
Even if mankind sinned and "fell" their fall had no power to change animals from herbivore to carnivore.

Thus the world today is exactly as God made it and intended it to be. In general God's will is being done, even in the allowing of sin and the allowing of Satan access to tempt man. Obviously God wished that mankind would not sin by eating the wrong tree. And maybe God was very disappointed by Adam and Eve.

Thus most of human existence has been lived under the present "fallen" conditions.

Do you agree so far?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't know when they "fell".

I think we can have at least an idea, based on the evidence.

But let's take what you say as the gospel truth.

I'd rather you examine my claims and find the flaws in them.

Mankind's time in Eden was short compared to human history.

Jesus said:

But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ - Mark 10:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark10:6&version=NKJV

This DIRECT QUOTE OF THE CREATOR is the most damning to your position.

Thus all fossils were formed during a time of "fallenness".

During the Flood, specifically.

That is why we have predators and parasites littering the whole fossil record.

Because those were the creatures that were alive during the Flood, which is what killed them and fossilized them.

Let's assume that God knew there was a possibility of mankind "falling".

He did, which is why He knew His creation would need a way to redeem mankind, and planned for the Son to give His life to save mankind.

And the gospel says that all things made were made by Jesus.

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Correct.

Thus God made the world the way it is.

Wrong.

God made the world perfect. The current world is not perfect.

The world we see today is the result of sin, of disobedience to God.

There is nobody else to thank/blame.

God is not to blame for the way the earth is now.

Even if mankind sinned and "fell" their fall had no power to change animals from herbivore to carnivore.

Never said man did.

But that doesn't mean that God is to blame for the way it is now.

God made creatures capable of surviving in a fallen world, and placed them in a perfect world.

Thus the world today is exactly as God made it and intended it to be.

No, it's not.

In general God's will is being done, even in the allowing of sin and the allowing of Satan access to tempt man.

So disobedience to God is actually obedience to God?

Get your head on straight, please.

Thus most of human existence has been lived under the present conditions.

While I don't disagree, I can't help but think you mean "billions of years" rather than a few thousand.

Most of human existence (more than half) has been lived under the present conditions (a post-Flood world).

Most of human existence (more than 99%) has been lived under the present conditions (a post-Fall world).

But it's not just human existence. It's also the world's existence.

Do you agree so far?

No. This is why I said, "I'd rather you examine my claims and find the flaws in them."

 

[iouae]

God is not to blame for the way the earth is now.

This was your response to my saying "Thus the world today is exactly as God made it and intended it to be."

I thought I would try an experiment by writing as if I agreed with everything you said.
And still you disagreed with me. Thus I find you are disagreeing with yourself.

If God intended the world to have thorns and men working by the sweat of their brows, and God made thorns, that is God's will for today.

Yet you are disagreeing with me I feel just to be disagreeable. Who else's will was it that there be thorns, and who else has the power to make thorns other than God. It might not have been option 1, but all options in the end (including thorns) are made by God. And presumably nobody can twist God's arm into making thorns.

 

[JudgeRightly]

This was your response to my saying "Thus the world today is exactly as God made it and intended it to be."

Because God intended the world to be different than it is now.

I thought I would try an experiment by writing as if I agreed with everything you said.

You failed, miserably, because less than half of your post was actually in agreement with my position.

And still you disagreed with me.

Yes. Because what you said, in trying to sound like you were agreeing with me, doesn't actually comport with my beliefs.

Thus I find you are disagreeing with yourself.

No, I'm disagreeing with what you said, because what you said is not what I said, nor does it align with my position.

If God intended the world to have thorns and men working by the sweat of their brows,

He didn't intend for thorns and thistles to be present, nor did He intend for man to have to sweat to produce for himself and his family.

Those are the consequences of Adam's actions, not the intention behind God's creation.

and God made thorns,

He didn't. Thorns are errors in the creation, not intended design.

that is God's will for today.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Yet you are disagreeing with me I feel just to be disagreeable.

You're imagining things.

Who else's will was it that there be thorns,

It wasn't anyone's will, not even God's, that there be thorns in Creation.

You don't seem to recognize that thorns are simply blooms which fail to open, meaning they would not been around in a perfect world, since they are errors in the plant. There were no errors in God's creation. It was, in fact, "very good."

Your position is that there were thorns outside the garden.

- Thorns: The Genesis thorns demonstrate the old-earth mishandling of God's Word. Taking Moses at his word, there were no thorns until after Adam sinned. Why? Thistles, thorns (i.e., blooms which fail to open), and even weeds, are part of the curse of the ground that resulted from the Fall. That teaching provides a powerful transdisciplinary (paleontological/theological) young-earth argument. Old-earth Christians claim that various rock layers, even those containing fossilized thorns, formed a hundred million years before the age of man. So, either 1) the rock layers and fossils actually are young or 2) Genesis is wrong and thorns preceded Adam's fall. Old-earthers including Joshua don't like either option. So what did Dr. Swamidass claim on today's broadcast? That the thorns had been there all along, but they were outside the Garden of Eden, all over the earth, for a hundred million years or more. So when God said, "Because of your sin now there will be thorns", God meant only that now there would be thorns also inside the Garden of Eden. Of course that's absurd and impossible with any sincere reading of the text. Why? Because God immediately kicked Adam out of the Garden. Yet He said that the thorns would cause Adam to sweat and toil as he works the ground. So because Man's sin corrupted the perfect creation, the thorns that God is talking about are those that would now grow in the fields all over the earth. From Genesis 3 when God said to Adam that because he had sinned... Cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, and you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread… Then... the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way... That story cannot be understood, unless you're willing to twist it beyond recognition, to claim that thorns had been outside of the Garden all along but Adam's fall resulted in thorns only then growing also within the Garden. Christians who reject the Bible's teaching of a young earth bring violence to the text.

The Wall Street Journal's creation compromise author on RSR | KGOV.com

kgov.com

and who else has the power to make thorns other than God.

Thorns were not made by God.

They are simply blooms which failed to open, meaning they're no longer "very good."

It might not have been option 1, but all options in the end (including thorns) are made by God.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

And presumably nobody can twist God's arm into making thorns.

Supra.

 

[iouae]

Thorns were not made by God.

They are simply blooms which failed to open, meaning they're no longer "very good."

"cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;"

So God did not make the thorns? Then who did? Satan?

And the article you included was nearly right. There were thorns on earth since forever, only in Eden were there no thorns. Just like in my garden I don't permit thorns (though I did make an exception for my bougainvillea but I keep it away from all paths). So when mankind was banished from eden, they encountered the world out there, and the world out here, which God had created from the beginning and called "very good".

You want your cake and to eat it too.

You want to say God did not create bad things like mosquitoes, thorns and ticks, yet scripture which I am getting tired of quoting says otherwise.

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[JudgeRightly]

cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;"

Yup. And?

So God did not make the thorns?

No.

Then who did?

No one. They are a consequence of the fall.

They are a result of errors in the genetic code of the plants.

Satan?

No.

And the article you included was nearly right.

It was spot on.

There were thorns on earth since forever,

That's not what the article says.

only in Eden were there no thorns.

Yes, that was Dr. Swamidass's position. The article is a counter to that position.

Just like in my garden I don't permit thorns (though I did make an exception for my bougainvillea but I keep it away from all paths). So when mankind was banished from eden, they encountered the world out there, and the world out here, which God had created from the beginning and called "very good".

You clearly didn't read the full portion of the article that I quoted.

Here it is again. This time, read it all the way through:

- Thorns: The Genesis thorns demonstrate the old-earth mishandling of God's Word. Taking Moses at his word, there were no thorns until after Adam sinned. Why? Thistles, thorns (i.e., blooms which fail to open), and even weeds, are part of the curse of the ground that resulted from the Fall. That teaching provides a powerful transdisciplinary (paleontological/theological) young-earth argument. Old-earth Christians claim that various rock layers, even those containing fossilized thorns, formed a hundred million years before the age of man. So, either 1) the rock layers and fossils actually are young or 2) Genesis is wrong and thorns preceded Adam's fall. Old-earthers including Joshua don't like either option. So what did Dr. Swamidass claim on today's broadcast? That the thorns had been there all along, but they were outside the Garden of Eden, all over the earth, for a hundred million years or more. So when God said, "Because of your sin now there will be thorns", God meant only that now there would be thorns also inside the Garden of Eden. Of course that's absurd and impossible with any sincere reading of the text. Why? Because God immediately kicked Adam out of the Garden. Yet He said that the thorns would cause Adam to sweat and toil as he works the ground. So because Man's sin corrupted the perfect creation, the thorns that God is talking about are those that would now grow in the fields all over the earth. From Genesis 3 when God said to Adam that because he had sinned... Cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, and you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread… Then... the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way... That story cannot be understood, unless you're willing to twist it beyond recognition, to claim that thorns had been outside of the Garden all along but Adam's fall resulted in thorns only then growing also within the Garden. Christians who reject the Bible's teaching of a young earth bring violence to the text.

(link to full article above)

You want your cake and to eat it too.

Nope.

You want to say God did not create bad things like mosquitoes, thorns and ticks,

Straw man.

Of the three things you just listed, God created TWO of them. Perhaps you can figure out which two.

I'll even make it easy for you! God created mosquitoes and ticks!

Guess what He did NOT create!?

yet scripture which I am getting tired of quoting says otherwise.

No, it doesn't.

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Do you not notice the "any thing that was made" bit?

God made everything that was made.

If something wasn't made, then He didn't make it.

Duh.

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Forming the light and creating darkness.

God forms the light, and by moving the light out of some places, He creates darkness.

Darkness isn't a "thing" to be created. It's the ABSENCE of something else. Therefore God "creating darkness" isn't Him literally creating a thing called darkness, it's Him removing light, forming it.

 

[Right Divider]

How about addressing the topic is this thread?

 

[iouae]

JR quoted

"That story cannot be understood, unless you're willing to twist it beyond recognition, to claim that thorns had been outside of the Garden all along but Adam's fall resulted in thorns only then growing also within the Garden"

Like I said, the writer nearly nailed it but forgot to read that they were cast out of the garden and there encountered thorns - thorns which had been there since creation or as the writer said "had been outside of the Garden all along".

 

[iouae]

I'll even make it easy for you! God created mosquitoes and ticks!

Guess what He did NOT create!?

Well you scored 66%. Funny how folks have no problem with God sending a worldwide deluge, yet have a problem with God creating thorns.

RD is getting a little antsy saying "How about addressing the topic is this thread?".

However long the earth has had life, that life has lived in a fallen state.
You say Friday 13th - day 6 = 7 days mankind lived in Eden. So all except one week, mankind has lived the fallen way.
The whole geologic column is a testament to the fact there never was a layer called the Eden layer where animals did not include predators, parasites and thorns. How could there be an Eden layer since this would have needed death to fossilise them, which by definition could not occur in Eden.

To you JR life on earth has been "very good" for 6/(365x6000) x100 = 0.000027 % of the time.
Take a guess how long I think life on earth has been very good or as God created it from the beginning - 100% of the time.
Life on earth, mosquitos, ticks, thorns and all are what God created from the start and called "very good".
I think my God is very much better than your one.