ECT How Can the Preterists be so Blind?

[Jerry Shugart]

Why do you keep ignoring Gen 48:19?

I asked you to explain Gen 48:19 before you brought up Jude 14-15.

Explain Gen 48:19?

Why do you keep running and hiding, and trying to change the subject?

Explain why that verse has anything to do with the subject of this thread. If you can answer that in an intelligent manner then I will explain the meaning of Genesis 48:19.

All you are doing is trying to change the subject of this thread in the hope that no one will notice that you did not even try to answer the verses I quoted in my OP.

 

[tetelestai]

Explain why that verse has anything to do with the subject of this thread. If you can answer that then I will explain the meaning of Genesis 48:19.

You're the one who quoted Matt 25:32, and then bolded the word "nations" in it as your proof that the judgment is world wide.

I then quoted Gen 48:19 and bolded the word "nations" just like you did in Matt 25:32.

So, please tell us who the "multitude of nations" the descendants of Ephraim became?

Or, just explain Gen 48:19, because it has everything to do with your claims about the judgment.

 

[God's Truth]

tetelestai,

Could you answer some questions about preterism for me?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Or, just explain Gen 48:19, because it has everything to do with your claims about the judgment.

One of the meanings of the Hebrew word translated "nations" in this verse is "a people, a confluence of men" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

"And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations" (Gen.48:19).​

The correct understanding of this verse is as follows:

"And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of a people" (Gen.48:19).​

You're the one who quoted Matt 25:32, and then bolded the word "nations" in it as your proof that the judgment is world wide.

Why wouldn't it be a world wide judgment since all nations will be judged at the Lord Jesus' return?:

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt.25:32-33,41).​

There is nothing said in this passage which even hints that only some of those from "all nations" will be judged.

Now that I have answered you it is your time to explain the meaning of this passage:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

This passage completely destroys the teaching of preterism because the Lord Jesus did not judge everyone in 70 AD.

 

[tetelestai]

One of the meanings of the Hebrew word translated "nations" in this verse is "a people, a confluence of men" (Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon).

"And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations" (Gen.48:19).​

The correct understanding of this verse is as follows:

"And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of a people" (Gen.48:19).​

That's not a very good answer Jerry.

Jacob said that the descendants of Manasseh would become a great people, but that the descendants of Ephraim would become a multitude of nations.

There is a contrast between "people" and "nations" in the same verse.

Who were the "great people" who descended from Manasseh, and who were the multitude of nations who descended from Ephraim?

 

[God's Truth]

Questions for tetelestai,

1. If the wrath of God is poured out after the tribulation is over, then what do Preterists believe the tribulation was, and what is the wrath of God?

2. How do you account for the creation still being subject to decay? (Romans 8:18-23)

3. What is the Preterist's view of a thousand years?

4. Isaiah says that our dead bodies will rise, (Isaiah 26:19); Jesus' physical body was raised from the dead, (Acts 17:29), and so our physical bodies will be raised from the dead too, (Romans 8:10). Since our physical bodies do not yet raise from the dead, how do you defend Preterism to that extent?

 

[tetelestai]

tetelestai,

Could you answer some questions about preterism for me?

Sure

 

[Interplanner]

I never said that Jude 1:14-15 is about the atoning suffering of Christ. Insead, I have always said that the passage is in regard to His second advent, a time after the Cross.

You cannot even understand what people say in their posts, much less what the Bible teaches. So I do not need any lectures from people like you.

Well guess what? The DofJ was after the cross. What you did in your post as I reread it is placed everything that was not at a distant 2nd coming as "1st coming."

As far as I can tell:
*Pentecost (ie the coming of the Spirit)
*the incoming of the Gentile believers
*the DofJ (as an act of God's wrath)
can all qualify as 'comings' mentioned by Jesus in addition to the 2nd coming.

 

[Interplanner]

The time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth (His first advent) He stated in no uncertain terms that He did not come to judge the world:

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" (Jn.12:47).​

However, this passage speaks of Him judging everyone:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

All you prove is the fact that you totally ignorant concerning the Lord Jesus' mission during His first advent. You prove that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to defend the false teaching of the preterists.

Here's Jerry's quote from Jude and the line that lumps such a judgement with Christ's first coming:

of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).

All you prove is the fact that you totally ignorant concerning the Lord Jesus' mission during His first advent.

Tet was not.

If you regard part of Mt24B as 'looping back' and mentioning some features of the DofJ and the world judgement in common (I do), then please notice that the moral chaos of Noah's flood is mentioned. Even though the revolt of 1st century was zealot-directed, there were truly morally corrupt people involved.

I mention this because Enoch's lines in Jude relate equally to any act of God's judgement on such corruption. There is no reason they don't pertain to the flood or late-kingdom Israel or the DofJ or the 2nd coming.

Most of the apostles thought the 2nd coming would happen right after the DofJ, Lattourrette, Vol 1, p43.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here's Jerry's quote from Jude and the line that lumps such a judgement with Christ's first coming:

I never said that the quote from Jude was in regard to the lord Jesus' first coming. I said:

The time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth (His first advent) He stated in no uncertain terms that He did not come to judge the world:

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" (Jn.12:47).​

However, this passage speaks of Him judging everyone:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

Get it?

I said that the Lord's first coming (the first advent) was not to judge the world but the words of Jude do speak of judging everyone. Therefore, common sense dictates that the words from Jude are in in regard to the Lord Jesus' first advent.

But since you are unable to understand the most simple things in the Bible you misrepresent my teaching.

 

[HisServant]

I never said that the quote from Jude was in regard to the lord Jesus' first coming. I said:

The time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth (His first advent) He stated in no uncertain terms that He did not come to judge the world:

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" (Jn.12:47).​

However, this passage speaks of Him judging everyone:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

Get it?

I said that the Lord's first coming (the first advent) was not to judge the world but the words of Jude do speak of judging everyone. Therefore, common sense dictates that the words from Jude are in in regard to the Lord Jesus' first advent.

But since you are unable to understand the most simple things in the Bible you misrepresent my teaching.

The Christians (Holy ones) are doing the judging... not Christ. Otherwise there would be a 'together' in there. And this is still going on, we are judging and preaching which convicts. So that applies to the first advent.

Learn to read.

 

[Danoh]

JerryS,
I checked your Enoch quote and...

Exactly - you ran off and checked - because you do not know Scripture inside and out as you do your endless books, due to where you invest a large part of your "study" time in.

You check a passage and read your PP70AD [Partial Preterist 1st Century end-time] notions into what is a best a surface impression of a passage, or passages.

Your whole school is like that - last minute, surface impressions, taken by you and yours as "time to read their PP70AD notions" into the passage.

The way it works is; you and yours don't really invest that much time in Scripture. Rather; in your endless books supposedly "about" Scripture.

Given that passages are mentioned in those books, you and yours become familiar with the passages, not through time in Scripture, but through your endless time in your endless books.

There you have the resulting false sense of “knowing Scripture” your endless books results in.

Later, should someone quote a passage in debate with you and yours that you are not really that familiar – outside of your endless books and because you do not really invest a great deal of time in Scripture itself – you go and look the passage up, attach your mess to its surface impression and we see fool posts like the above, well, Paul meant this, Jesus meant that, and so on...

There is our problem with you and yours – we forget we are not really dealing with a group who actually know “that which is noted in the Scripture of truth,” rather; that which is noted in the endless books of your tradition “about” what is noted in Scripture; taken by you as “knowing the Word.”

Until you and yours honestly deal with this massive dishonesty of yours, even pointing this out to you, let alone attempting to deal with you as if dealing with someone who actually knows the Scripture; will fall on deaf ears.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is a contrast between "people" and "nations" in the same verse.

I answered you! Even if you are right about the meaning of Genesis 48:19 it would not change anything about what is said here:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt.25:31-32,41).​

There is nothing said in this passage which even hints that only some of those from "all nations" will be judged.

Now that I have answered you it is your time to explain the meaning of this passage:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

This passage completely destroys the teaching of preterism because the Lord Jesus did not judge everyone in 70 AD. And that is why you continue to run and hide from this passage.

 

[Danoh]

The Christians (Holy ones) are doing the judging... not Christ. Otherwise there would be a 'together' in there. And this is still going on, we are judging and preaching which convicts. So that applies to the first advent.

Learn to read.

See post #172.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Christians (Holy ones) are doing the judging... not Christ. Otherwise there would be a 'together' in there. And this is still going on, we are judging and preaching which convicts. So that applies to the first advent.

Learn to read.

Learn to actually use your brain! According to you thousands and thousands of Christians came to the earth with the Lord Jesus when He was born of Mary.

All you preterists prove that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, in order to cling to the silly ideas invented by the preterists.

This passage speaks of the time when the lord Jesus will return to the earth with His holy ones, the angels:

"God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2 Thess.1:6-8).​

 

[HisServant]

See post #172.

My views are consistent with the views held by the majority of Christians until the 1800's.

You guys are new agers... you act as if God hid the truth since Jesus resurrection.

You might as well be a Mormon... no difference.

 

[Danoh]

My views are consistent with the views held by the majority of Christians until the 1800's.

You guys are new agers... you act as if God hid the truth since Jesus resurrection.

You might as well be a Mormon... no difference.

No, God did not hide it; your traditions did.

And no; no Mormon here; you fool - we hold to the fundamentals of the faith the Mormons deny.

Your views being "consistent with the guessing at that resulted in the views held by the majority of Christians until the 1800's."

 

[Puppet]

Nope, scoffer-you "argued:"

say it everyday for 2000 years and still counting?

Genesis 3:15 KJV
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

How many years, from the above prophecy,...


it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. ...

...and its ultimate fulfillment? 6000 years, or so?

I thought so. Now, take your seat, in the back row, until I decide to give you the honor of engaging me again.


"I'm done with false MAD. Been there done that. Ain't doing that agian."-pup

Translated: You are not done with MAD, as you'll keep coming back, for some more getting bloodied, pounding, methodically being dismantled, and ending up in a heap, on the mat.

Stay down....on the mat. Sit, Boo Boo.

Can you dig it?


saint John "House" W

Dispensationalism is false theology.

Sit down in the back til I call you forth

 

[HisServant]

No, God did not hide it; your traditions did.

And no; no Mormon here; you fool - we hold to the fundamentals of the faith the Mormons deny.

Your views being "consistent with the guessing at that resulted in the views held by the majority of Christians until the 1800's."

Traditions could not hide the truth.. (unless you believe the Holy Spirit was silent all through that time.)

Admit it, you follow the theology of a couple of crack pots.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

My views are consistent with the views held by the majority of Christians until the 1800's.

Which Christians before the 1800's said that this verse is referring to the Lord Jesus' first coming with thousands and thousands of Christians when He was born of Mary?:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

You said that the coming of the Lord Jesus described here refers to the Lord's first advent:

The Christians (Holy ones) are doing the judging... not Christ. Otherwise there would be a 'together' in there. And this is still going on, we are judging and preaching which convicts. So that applies to the first advent.

The Lord came at the first advent through the womb of Mary and according to you He came with thousands and thousands of Christians.

All you prove is the fact that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, in order to try to defend the warped ideas of the preterists.