How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?

[Lon]

You have ignored answering this verse too. Asking three questions is not answering anything. Its the cluck cluck cluck way out.

:blah: Thus asserts the pontificator.

And verse 6 says exactly what verse 5 says.

Hate to speak down to you, but read it again. You are wrong.

When one is on a forum one gets a feel for posters. One begins to associate a name with a feeling that this poster has something worthwhile to say or not. My first impression of you Lon, from the very beginning, you were one of the first posters to make a good impression on me. Now, having actually tried to get a straight answer from you, it has been a bit of a disappointment. Post after post you actually say nothing, answer nothing, and seem to totally ignore scripture.

Ditto. Both. :up: (at least on the first, no?)

You are like the the pharmacist who reads a prescription for a vial of insulin, and fills the prescription with a pack of aspirin, that is how big I find the disconnect between what it says in the Bible, and what you describe it as saying.

Not sure your analogy is important, for either of us. It was best left unsaid AND takes the focus off the thread topic (the only thing that matters this thread)

When someone has such disregard for scripture as you have shown (and you boldface will say nobody presents you with scripture - when in fact it is you ignoring all the scriptures we present) flogging a dead horse is now the dominant impression I have about you.

Er, no. Frankly, I gave verse 6, remember? ALL you had to do was talk about it, or ensuing scriptures. WHY wouldn't that be the more honorable tack (assuming scriptures are the final authority and only need)?

Here again was the scripture I asked you to explain. Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

"On earth?" - they are dead Lon, so you tell me if they are on earth and why "on earth?" matters. "Or period?" How about trying to explain why "or period?" matters. If they are still alive, tell us what they are doing. And the next verse says the same - that major reading problem you have is in evidence. But it seems to be a reading problem exacerbated by reading any scripture.

Scripture? Appreciated. Your inane commentary? Unecessary and frankly, gets in HIS way. YOU, IOUAE, keep getting in GOD'S way! GET OUT OF THE WAY!!! Just post His words. When someone comes up with more scriptures, ESPECIALLY from the same passage, instead of posturing, TRY to understand what they are trying to say. LOOK, nobody is going to change another's mind on TOL. There is no brow beating as you and Clefty have done, nor asserting that you are 'more proud of your scripture understanding than anybody else on TOL.' Frankly, that is a non-starter. It just invites 'attack me, I dare you!' purposefully. As I said, nobody wrestles with their pride more than I do (probably not quite true, but...) but it isn't said to be mean. It is an admission. I know my scriptures pretty well and I'm reasonably intelligent. Done deal, it is my burden AND I'm sorry it gets in the way. Go back to scripture as often as you can. You don't NEED to put anybody who disagrees with you down. You DO need patience to carefully explain scriptures. If not? Then MAYBE you shouldn't be trying to teach. God is going to hold us teachers to a higher standard. Part of teaching is patience and a LOT of it. I'm not nearly as snarky as you think I am in this thread. I admit though, I need to keep these things in mind. It'd be GREAT if we just could talk for a few moments about verse 6. I 'think' it addresses your assumption. For me, context of scripture is important to every verse's interpretation. Do we HAVE to shove our interpretations down another's throat?

You know we have a dead horse icon on TOL already, don't you? It takes up less bandwidth --> linger::deadhorse:

 

[iouae]

It'd be GREAT if we just could talk for a few moments about verse 6.

This looks like a wonderful restart ...

Here is what I think Ecc 9:6 says, but, being human, I may be wrong...

Ecc 9:6
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Also Ecc 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

The dead it seems, have no emotions, no love, hate or envy (whereas the "Samuel" we see speaking to Saul was positively grouchy.)

And the dead are separated from all the action taking place on earth - all the squabbles over who inherits their stuff etc. Sounds exactly like a person asleep to me - no emotions, no involvement with earthly matters.

If Ecc 9:6 were literally true, then it contradicts "Samuel" being totally involved after his death in the earthly matters of Saul, leaving the possibility that it was the familiar spirit posing as him.

What do you think about this verse Lon

 

[iouae]

Also Lon, if you would mind explaining Dan 12:13

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Do you believe we have reached "the end of days" yet? Yes No Dunno

Do you believe Daniel is resting still? Yes No Dunno

 

[Lon]

This looks like a wonderful restart ...

Here is what I think Ecc 9:6 says, but, being human, I may be wrong...

Ecc 9:6
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Also Ecc 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

The dead it seems, have no emotions, no love, hate or envy (whereas the "Samuel" we see speaking to Saul was positively grouchy.)

Well, let's take your idea and interpretation for a moment. PLEASE forgive me if this is a salvific issue for you or Clefty. It is not for me. Why? Because as you said, the Lord Jesus Christ has our hairs numbered, there may be no need to have a bloody war over such an issue because to me, it amounts to the same thing, of course with a little disagreement, until at least the judgement seat. If that part is wrong, please make it plain without accusation. I'm listening. I don't need a diatribe on how all us orthodox are horribly wrong. To me? That part doesn't matter (PLEASE ignore all of this part in reply, just for background for our conversation, UNLESS you disagree and something is really important).

So, here goes: As you said to another in thread, the Lord Jesus Christ can easily reassemble parts. Is it thus, at least plausible, that 'if' your idea is correct and Samuel was 'poof' could it at least be entertained that such happened? That maybe God was trying to tell Saul something and brought Samuel back? :think: No idea 'if' such is allowable from your theology reading, but 'could' it? Thanks.

And the dead are separated from all the action taking place on earth - all the squabbles over who inherits their stuff etc. Sounds exactly like a person asleep to me - no emotions, no involvement with earthly matters.

Thank you. I agree on this much. "Under the sun" was stated so it is where my mind went, of course. IOW, it 'seemed' to me that Solomon was qualifying his statement in verse 5 further. Is such at least an honest expectation and attempt at scriptural understanding, even if we disagree it is that clear? Does it at least somewhat allow for that interpretation? If so, it might need more verses or some other passage, but my point is, is it okay, so far in the restart of our discussion, if I entertain for the time-being, with you, that perhaps Solomon is saying 'under the sun' at this point? Is that interpretation allowed?

If Ecc 9:6 were literally true, then it contradicts "Samuel" being totally involved after his death in the earthly matters of Saul, leaving the possibility that it was the familiar spirit posing as him.

What do you think about this verse Lon

Thanks for the reboot and I take it as an honest and sincere reboot. I 'think' I've covered this with my query above. Please do let me know if such is even remotely possible from 'your' theology model. Again, was God bound to the 'non-existence?' Is there something in your scriptural understanding that 'would' prevent that. It may be awkward if this is giving too much ground so I appreciate a small bit of your vulnerability on this if it 'could.' If not, let me know more of your scriptures and theology that prohibits it. Thank you. -Lon

 

[Lon]

Also Lon, if you would mind explaining Dan 12:13

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Do you believe we have reached "the end of days" yet? Yes No Dunno

Do you believe Daniel is resting still? Yes No Dunno

Yes, was. No, not now. *Please bear with me or skip to the asterisk for the short answer. I felt like I had to explain my (our) view/position, to better answer your question.

Let me at least give you the plausibility 'from my perspective' again. You can reject it, I just want you to know why it makes 'biblical' sense to me. Fair enough? (thanks ahead of time).

For me: The O.T. talks about two things. 1) Death is a grave, though O.T. saints didn't know exactly what happened to people after death, I think they alluded to it. For instance, David had mentioned that his son with Bathsheba wouldn't come to him, but that he, David, would go to him.

2)I 'think' there is allusion to the afterlife. Think of it in these terms: The Sadducees, reading scripture, believed as you (to some degree) and the Pharisees, reading the same scriptures, believed that it wasn't all over at death (you can clarify the difference here for anyone else reading along).

I could go more in depth, but I'm going to try to just give the overall: Importantly, I believe the OT alludes to the Bosom of Abraham also called Paradise, and Hades. Some terms are used synonymous and so I think they get confused. Maybe a different name for these, but Sheol is generally 'death/place of the dead.' Gehenna is a term more akin to 'grave.' You may disagree with some of this too, but again, my main reason is simply to give my scriptural construct.

So, prior to the Lord Jesus Christ's work on redemption, nobody had access to the Father (assumes people are alive after death and go some place while their bodies are in the grave). So, the place, Sheol, is a holding tank that is divided (Luke 16:19-31). I realize this is just 'parable' for you at this time. I'm not trying to 'convince' just give you the overview of what I believe whether you buy it or not. I just want you to know some of the details and why it all fits together and makes sense, because I'm trying to answer your question meaningfully.

So, Paradise or 'place of torment' Luke 16:19-31 It isn't just Luke, but all scriptures do seem to 'fit' with this model. The biggest part is this:

Before the Cross --> Abraham's Bosom (Paradise). After the cross and the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection, the O.T. saints are said to have risen with the Lord Jesus Christ and then the ascension. So before the Cross: Bosom of Abraham, Paradise. Jesus went to Paradise (again according to this model) for 3 days and preached to the saints in prison 1 Peter 3:19. This, as far as I understand it, is why the Lord Jesus Christ said to the thief he'd be with Him in Paradise 'today.' The thief was one of the 'spirits in prison.'

So now, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
* The reason that the O.T. is different from the N.T. is because of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Prior to His death? No access to the Father so no heaven.
After? Paradise (Sheol) is no longer needed for those in Christ, therefore 'now' to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

You can dismiss this (if so, thanks for listening) or ask for clarification if curious at least (also thanks for listening).

-Lon

 

[clefty]

There is one thing all these versions have in common:

“New International Version
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New Living Translation
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

English Standard Version
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Study Bible
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Literal Bible
Now we are confident and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

New American Standard Bible
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

King James Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Christian Standard Bible
In fact, we are confident, and we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Contemporary English Version
We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord.

Good News Translation
We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.

International Standard Version
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.

NET Bible
Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New Heart English Bible
We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because of this we trust and we long to depart from the body and to be with Our Lord.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.

New American Standard 1977
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Jubilee Bible 2000
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

King James 2000 Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American King James Version
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American Standard Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

English Revised Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Webster's Bible Translation
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Weymouth New Testament
So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.

World English Bible
We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Young's Literal Translation
we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.”

None of them say “rather to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord” NONE

Paul had just introduced a comparison of our earthly bodies with our heavenly bodies by comaparing them to the tabernacle/tent a movable TEMPORARY shelter to trading that in and upgrading to a HEAVENLY BUILDING...but always clothed NOT naked free spirits...

“1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, “

This verse is always used to inject or infer or maintain the idea that away from the body IS to be with the lord in spirit form.

That it is about the body is supported by POOR translations of the next verse:

“New International Version
So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

New Living Translation
So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.”

When anyone can find the greek translation and clearly see the word body is completely ignored.

http://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/5-9.htm



“Behold I come quickly my reward is with me...” this is when Paul meant when he writes “and to be with the Lord”

The reward is not to be naked free spirits but to be clothed by a heavenly building...as upon completing the race (dying...going to sleeep) we dont get a partial award with a sample or spoiler becoming spirits floating about and as spirits unable to embrace kiss each other or touch the Masters hands or face...how horrible actually...

Nor do we as spirits have to come back to get the second installment of the rewards plan...

but that reward He brings at His second coming is COMPLETE...a new heavenly building a glorified body restored and NOT to IMMORTALITY in and of itself...but given restored access to that which keeps us alive eternally...to eat from the tree of life in our restored physical bodies

 

[iouae]

Yes, was. No, not now. *Please bear with me or skip to the asterisk for the short answer. I felt like I had to explain my (our) view/position, to better answer your question....

-Lon

Thank you for your gracious replies Lon. I see your whole doctrine is well thought out and backed with scriptures so I want to give it my full attention and address it adequately soon. My day was so hard that my brain is currently toast. Please be patient.

 

[Lon]

therefore 'now' to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

-Lon

Spoiler

There is one thing all these versions have in common:

“New International Version
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New Living Translation
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

English Standard Version
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Study Bible
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Literal Bible
Now we are confident and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

New American Standard Bible
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

King James Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Christian Standard Bible
In fact, we are confident, and we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Contemporary English Version
We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord.

Good News Translation
We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.

International Standard Version
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.

NET Bible
Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New Heart English Bible
We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because of this we trust and we long to depart from the body and to be with Our Lord.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.

New American Standard 1977
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Jubilee Bible 2000
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

King James 2000 Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American King James Version
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American Standard Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

English Revised Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Webster's Bible Translation
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Weymouth New Testament
So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.

World English Bible
We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Young's Literal Translation
we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.”

None of them say “rather to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord” NONE

Paul had just introduced a comparison of our earthly bodies with our heavenly bodies by comaparing them to the tabernacle/tent a movable TEMPORARY shelter to trading that in and upgrading to a HEAVENLY BUILDING...but always clothed NOT naked free spirits...

“1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, “

This verse is always used to inject or infer or maintain the idea that away from the body IS to be with the lord in spirit form.

That it is about the body is supported by POOR translations of the next verse:

“New International Version
So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

New Living Translation
So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.”

When anyone can find the greek translation and clearly see the word body is completely ignored.

http://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/5-9.htm



“Behold I come quickly my reward is with me...” this is when Paul meant when he writes “and to be with the Lord”

The reward is not to be naked free spirits but to be clothed by a heavenly building...as upon completing the race (dying...going to sleeep) we dont get a partial award with a sample or spoiler becoming spirits floating about and as spirits unable to embrace kiss each other or touch the Masters hands or face...how horrible actually...

Nor do we as spirits have to come back to get the second installment of the rewards plan...

but that reward He brings at His second coming is COMPLETE...a new heavenly building a glorified body restored and NOT to IMMORTALITY in and of itself...but given restored access to that which keeps us alive eternally...to eat from the tree of life in our restored physical bodies

:think:
2 Corinthians 5:6,8 :think:
How about 2 Corinthians 5:17 and John 11:26?

You can dismiss this (if so, thanks for listening) or ask for clarification if curious at least (also thanks for listening).

-Lon

 

[Lon]

Thank you for your gracious replies Lon. I see your whole doctrine is well thought out and backed with scriptures so I want to give it my full attention and address it adequately soon. My day was so hard that my brain is currently toast. Please be patient.

A small bit of further (I think needed) information. The place of torment IS hades now. The Bosom of Abraham is heaven now, as far I understand it, so those awaiting judgement are there. I don't know what the 'torment' is, but I assume it is living with their own thoughts and realizing everything they rejected, was true. To me, I think scripture explains us without Him as horrible and tormenting. Our ONLY hope is in Christ. So, at this point, while I understand your soul sleep stance, I'm fairly convinced this model fits scriptures better, to my best understanding of verses to date. An example that fits well: "Death and hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. There is something in 'death' being thrown into the Lake, that 'may' mean annihilation. While Annihilation is a minority view, I see, scripturally, why such is held and appreciate it. For me, there are just a few scriptures that seem to be against it, but this thread isn't about that, and I've already spoken to that topic in that behemoth of a thread that it need not be redone here. Rather, I'm saying I'm not certain soul sleep is scripturally consistent (but I'm listening), and that I don't find it a huge issue BUT it does effect how we give people hope in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[clefty]

:think:

that is a good start for you...not sure it suits you though

2 Corinthians 5:6,

and? Of course stuck here in these tabernacles we are absent Christ...but He is present with us...we are not where He is but He is where we are...duh

8

what still? Yes rather be absent this tabernacle AND present with the Lord...it is NOT “absent the body IS to be automatically present with the Lord”...thought I clarified that for you already...Paul knows that to be present with the Lord is AFTER the resurrection when we raised and are clothed in our new heavenly bodies present with Him where He is...

:think:

by all means...feel free to

How about 2 Corinthians 5:17

how about...In Christ means what? That we are spirits floating about?

No Heaven Forbid...we establish the Law...we live here and now JUST AS He did here on earth JUST AS it is in heaven...Thy will be done...Thy kingdom come...is what we want to practice...

and John 11:26?

and of all those He said this to the believers and the unbelievers both died...the first death...He of course was talking about not dying the second death...all who believe will be restored into new heavenly building eating the tree of life again...those who do not...well...good eternal night

 

[Lon]

that is a good start for you...not sure it suits you though

Having a hard time checking your snarky at the door? :think:

and? Of course stuck here in these tabernacles we are absent Christ...but He is present with us...we are not where He is but He is where we are...duh what still? Yes rather be absent this tabernacle AND present with the Lord...it is NOT “absent the body IS to be automatically present with the Lord”...thought I clarified that for you already...Paul knows that to be present with the Lord is AFTER the resurrection when we raised and are clothed in our new heavenly bodies present with Him where He is...

Its an assumption, any way...

by all means...feel free to

:think: You REALLY don't like this icon :noway:

lain: Go ahead. Get it out of your system. Is this going to take long?

(Honestly, I tried. You've been less than stellar, so I'm about done - inane posturing, I just can't stand past the first day. The next day? Back in the school yard it'd be done with talking. Here? Just not interested. 1 Corinthians 13:11

how about...In Christ means what? That we are spirits floating about?

No Heaven Forbid...we establish the Law...we live here and now JUST AS He did here on earth JUST AS it is in heaven...Thy will be done...Thy kingdom come...is what we want to practice...

and of all those He said this to the believers and the unbelievers both died...the first death...He of course was talking about not dying the second death...all who believe will be restored into new heavenly building eating the tree of life again...those who do not...well...good eternal night

I realize your position, and in fact, don't need a recap. I've got it. Without the polite conversation? I don't need it.

 

[way 2 go]

Right...correct...yup

But according to yours...the dead are able to be dialed up for personal gain and counsel at any time by witches...

liar .

 

[glorydaz]

liar .

Yep

 

[iouae]

Before the Cross --> Abraham's Bosom (Paradise). After the cross and the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection, the O.T. saints are said to have risen with the Lord Jesus Christ and then the ascension. So before the Cross: Bosom of Abraham, Paradise. Jesus went to Paradise (again according to this model) for 3 days and preached to the saints in prison 1 Peter 3:19. This, as far as I understand it, is why the Lord Jesus Christ said to the thief he'd be with Him in Paradise 'today.' The thief was one of the 'spirits in prison.'

-Lon

OK Lon, let's examine what you say. Again, thanks for the tone of your post

Am I correct in saying that your doctrine hinges around 1 Pet 3:19 and the fact that some saints rose after Christ's death?

1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Mat 27:51
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[way 2 go]

Originally Posted by way 2 go

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead it seems have no emotions, no love, hate or envy (whereas the "Samuel" we see speaking to Saul was positively grouchy.

And they are now out of all the action taking place on earth - all the squabbles over who inherits their stuff etc. Sounds exactly like a person asleep to me - no emotions, no involvement with earthly matters.

Yet here is "Samuel" being totally involved after his death in the earthly matters of Saul. So thanks for pointing out this verse which too PROVES that the real Samuel was not the one involved with earthly matters, it was the familiar spirit posing as him.

But when one has such utter disconnect between the words on the page of a Bible, and those same words inside Lon's brain - I am expecting no apology from Lon for totally misrepresenting verse 6 too.

here ,under the sun.

your verse does not address the spirit world of Samuel



Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


The thief was with God that day

 

[iouae]

OK Lon, let's examine what you say. Again, thanks for the tone of your post

Am I correct in saying that your doctrine hinges around 1 Pet 3:19 and the fact that some saints rose after Christ's death?

1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Mat 27:51
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

My problem with Matt 27:51-53 is that it is such an obscure and bizarre story (with no comparable retelling in the other Gospels) that I am having a little trouble with understanding it, and certainly would not like to build a doctrine on my shaky understanding of this obscure scripture.

One thing that bothers me about this, is that the graves are opened by the earthquake which tears the temple veil - which occurs at the very moment of Christ's death.

But from Matt 27:53 it says that BODIES (soma Gk) came out of the graves "after His resurrection" which would have been three days later. And these bodies went into the holy city of Jerusalem and were seen by many.

I presume the point of this is to show that once Christ is risen, death and the grave have lost their power to hold the dead. But the story is troubling.

Also, to date, I have never thought of these as OT dead saints like Daniel or Moses etc. but rather contemporaries of Jesus day. For one thing, most OT saints were not buried anywhere near Jerusalem. But if these were converts of Jesus and John the Baptist, and "freshly" dead, with their families still living in Jerusalem - this may make sense. Imagine you have buried someone recently who was a Christian convert, but died. After Christ's resurrection with the graves open, this Christian relative rises from the dead and walks home as a mortal human, similar to the many whom Jesus raised from the dead such as Lazarus.

Where I think Lon has a problem is Matt 27:52 says "many bodies of the saints which slept arose". It does not say "all bodies of the saints which slept arose". And the dead saints who rose seem to be linked to graves which were opened at Christ's death, which limits who arose to those close enough to the earthquake to have opened their grave. This is not very many saints.

Thus, what I am seeing from this story is a handful of freshly dead Christians, living in and around Jerusalem, having their graves opened, and them being resurrected and given a few years more of mortal life - as Lazarus was - and then they would grow old and die etc.

Does anyone have any ideas as to the significance of this bit of scripture?

 

[way 2 go]

Luk 16:31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

BINGO so Abraham is WRONG...people ARE convinced by people being raised from the dead...

good good yup...Jesus was NOT teaching it...Abraham was...and was proven wrong...silly folk tales are like that...

:kookoo:

moreover what the serpent said was true...and the donkey...so?

:kookoo:

serpent lied & no prophecy from the donkey

That I dont post scripture I expect you to recall does not mean my opinion is the Bible has lots of lies...

see above

Peter wrote the donkey spoke with a human voice...genesis its written a snake spoke...some disobedient Israelites believed the golden calf was the god that brought them out of egypt...Saul heard discribed what the witch brung up and believed what she said...all of these are written in scripture but it is not the case...not a lie...just not as written...

I have literal scripture you have no evidence from these verse of your ideas. conjecture that's all

1Sa 28:14 ... And Saul knew that it was Samuel,

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel

 

[clefty]

Having a hard time checking your snarky at the door? :think:

snarky...you kids are cute...

Its an assumption, any way...

show me otherwise with your prowess

:think: You REALLY don't like this icon :noway:

it does say more than you do...

lain: Go ahead. Get it out of your system. Is this going to take long?

long does not fit your attention span...

(Honestly, I tried. You've been less than stellar, so I'm about done - inane posturing, I just can't stand past the first day. The next day? Back in the school yard it'd be done with talking. Here? Just not interested. 1 Corinthians 13:11

I realize your position, and in fact, don't need a recap. I've got it. Without the polite conversation? I don't need it.

and yet...

 

[clefty]

:kookoo:





:kookoo:

serpent lied & no prophecy from the donkey



see above




I have literal scripture you have no evidence from these verse of your ideas. conjecture that's all

1Sa 28:14 ... And Saul knew that it was Samuel,

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel

Lol...tell it to Abraham he teaches (in the parable) no one believes one risen from the dead...

Besides the disciples were afraid cuz they saw a ghost...on the water...and a spirit until He had them touch Him...hmmmm...maybe Samuel should have let Saul touch him...or at least confirm what he perceived or thought he knew...odd that he didnt actually...I mean even the Lazazrus account on Abraham’s bosom is REAL and confirmed cuz he is named...you know it cant be a mere parable cuz names were used...

Or?

 

[Lon]

My problem with Matt 27:51-53 is that it is such an obscure and bizarre story (with no comparable retelling in the other Gospels) that I am having a little trouble with understanding it, and certainly would not like to build a doctrine on my shaky understanding of this obscure scripture.

Agree. Both counts. That said, you can at least see 'why' I think this model fits even this passage. It does fit, but I appreciate any problematics. Again, thank you for even looking. I appreciate that.

One thing that bothers me about this, is that the graves are opened by the earthquake which tears the temple veil - which occurs at the very moment of Christ's death.

But from Matt 27:53 it says that BODIES (soma Gk) came out of the graves "after His resurrection" which would have been three days later. And these bodies went into the holy city of Jerusalem and were seen by many.

I presume the point of this is to show that once Christ is risen, death and the grave have lost their power to hold the dead. But the story is troubling.

Again, 1) Agree and 2) thanks for looking. Odd as it is, and it is hard to discern, it yet , for its oddity, fits with this model too.

Also, to date, I have never thought of these as OT dead saints like Daniel or Moses etc. but rather contemporaries of Jesus day. For one thing, most OT saints were not buried anywhere near Jerusalem. But if these were converts of Jesus and John the Baptist, and "freshly" dead, with their families still living in Jerusalem - this may make sense. Imagine you have buried someone recently who was a Christian convert, but died. After Christ's resurrection with the graves open, this Christian relative rises from the dead and walks home as a mortal human, similar to the many whom Jesus raised from the dead such as Lazarus.

That is why, for me, this is BETTER when we all pool our thoughts and careful study. I think we do separate into our camps rather well. Perhaps it helps, somewhat, to know I'm a bit different, though I do think we exist after we die. In science, energy cannot be destroyed, just changed and I'm under scriptural impression that we live on after we die. Certainly you do too, it is just a matter of whether there is an interim sleep. It wouldn't matter, again, imho.

I can't remember the conversation now, but years ago, it was suggested that perhaps your model is a fast-train to the bema seat. It would make sense that 'to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord' because, even if as you say, the VERY next thought is in the Lord's presence. It'd be immediate. I have a few scriptural roadblocks in view: Hebrews 12:1 Revelation 6:9; 7:11

Does anyone have any ideas as to the significance of this bit of scripture?

Again, thanks for discussing this. -Lon