Honoring Old Love vs Medical Tyranny

[Rusha]

Actually, you did.

Didn't happen.

You did it when you put an arbitrary test given by someone lacking proper qualifications over the heartfelt expressions of the woman that she didn't want to be kept from her husband and commenting specialists who reviewed the case.

Arbitrary only for YOU. You weren't there. Her daughters were.

I already posted this. Let's see if you will answer this time:

Yes. To be cared for. There were legitimate concerns about the woman's safety and health which you pretend did not exist.

Prior to her death, IF she had wandered out of her room and fallen down a flight of stairs or left the hospital, stumbled into the middle of the road to be run over by a car, who would you blame?

Oh, I know. The hospital. Because she would be THEIR responsibility.
You would INSIST that they be charged with criminal negligence.

In that case, IF she were in her own home and her husband turned his back and she wandered out in the street while in his care and was hit by a car, HE should be charged with criminal negligence.

Someone in her condition needs around the clock supervision. Which is exactly what my maternal grandparents were given as well as my aunt when they were too far gone with the disease to live in their own home.

You have not once even considered that the daughters did this because they were genuinely concerned about the safety and health of their mother.

My focus has been on the woman's declining health and as usual, your focus has been on the husband's desire for sex.

Here is an example of the mom's condition:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...om-an-astonishing-case-of-sex-and-alzheimers/

In March of last year, Donna’s daughter Linda Dunshee took her mother out to lunch. Beneath her winter coat and blazer, Donna was wearing only a sleep teddy that left her breasts exposed. Later, Donna put her hands in the toilet bowl in the restaurant bathroom, Dunshee told a state investigator.

Obviously her husband wasn't even reliable enough to make sure the woman was dressed prior to going out. It's obvious he was too incompetent to care for her.

 

[Rusha]

Only that's not true. You've been ignoring the constant stress she was put through by being put in that horrible home and her longing for her husband.

The woman who was not capable of dressing herself and whose husband allowed her to leave the house in only a sleeping teddy and exposed breasts covered over by her coat?

You call that responsible, huh?

You make the man out to be a mindless animal, not a responsive, caring husband.

It's obvious he was not capable of taking care of her. It's not me who has made him out to be a mindless animal. He did that himself by disrespecting her while she lay in her bed because he thought he was slick enough to not get caught forcing sex on a woman too ill to consent.

 

[Sitamun]

Does an amorous sleeping spouse who's murmuring and cuddling count as someone giving consent?

How about someone you think is still "with you" because it started out familiarly enough, albeit low key - until he starts snoring? :chuckle: Oops. Does that make you a rapist?



So when you wake up your spouse with kisses and some moves, are you assaulting him? It's not like most people ask their husband each and every time they start a-flirting.

If consent is orally withdrawn and advances are not welcome, that's a different thing altogether. That's not what I'm asking about.

If your spouse is mentally able to consent, then doing these things is fine, up to and only if the consent is not verbally withdrawn, or they remain asleep.

You seem to ignore all the issues the woman was having that were concerns of her daughters. Perhaps the daughters knew they could not take care of their mother the way she needed care. Perhaps the husband didn't think their help was needed, so them helping care for her in her own home wasn't possible. WE DON'T KNOW. All we do know is that the daughters were concerned (and rightly so given their statements if they are truthful)

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Her daughters were.

Her daughters didn't attempt to facilitate in-home care and supervision. What nice, compassionate daughters!

Yes. To be cared for. There were legitimate concerns about the woman's safety and health which you pretend did not exist.

Did. Not. Pretend.

Prior to her death, IF she had wandered out of her room and fallen down a flight of stairs or left the hospital, stumbled into the middle of the road to be run over by a car, who would you blame?

Her daughters and stepsons, if they did not help their aging parents live safely together.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...om-an-astonishing-case-of-sex-and-alzheimers/

In March of last year, Donna’s daughter Linda Dunshee took her mother out to lunch.

She knew she was taking her compromised mom out and didn't dress her!? Nice daughter. You sympathize?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Actually you assume the man is pushing himself.

And you assume that her wishes were not expressed when she married and stayed married for years prior to her being taken from her husband, and repeatedly asked to be returned to him.

She never once complained of abuse, they never found evidence of abuse and she even bragged that her husband really appreciated her magnetism as a woman to her daughter, which her daughter presented to the world in the crassest diary description possible, (now public, thanks to the charges) if you ask me.

Signing on the dotted line, as it were, doesn't automatically convey eternal consent for sex. From what I am seeing about this case, it likes like she never complained about anything as she had lost the ability to form rational and cohesive thoughts.

Things could be as you assert but it seems highly suspicious to me. Had it been my wife in that situation I would not be trying to have sex with her in a semi private room. That would be hugely disrespectful towards my wife regardless of her consent.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

...From what I am seeing about this case, it likes like she never complained about anything as she had lost the ability to form rational and cohesive thoughts.

Untrue. Read Granite's article. She complained about numerous things. She complained to the home supervisor that they were trying to keep her from her husband. She pleaded with her husband to at least take her for a drive to see the flowers and the bees coming out of the hives.

Things could be as you assert but it seems highly suspicious to me.

I assert the rape kit was negative and that no sex happened on the alleged day. They were kept apart. He was a good man to her, prayed with and dressed her, etc.

 

[Rusha]

He was a good man to her, prayed with and dressed her, etc.

She knew she was taking her compromised mom out and didn't dress her!? Nice daughter. You sympathize?

According to you, her husband dressed her. Make up your mind.

Odd that this *good man* who WAS her caregiver couldn't be bothered to dress her but instead just put a coat over her.

And you vouch for him that he was a "good man". :think:

Do you even understand the responsibilities of a caregiver?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

According to you, her husband dressed her. Make up your mind.

Odd that this *good man* who WAS her caregiver couldn't be bothered to dress her but instead just put a coat over her.

And you vouch for him that he was a "good man". :think:

:AMR:

Is your reading comprehension really this bad or are you just overly agitated, because surely, despite the fact that we are not using Spanish verbs in all their richness and past-tense descriptiveness, you should have been able to detect context?!

I'll spell it out for you. He was good about dressing her when he was there for her, not when his children were supposed to be with her and standing in.

When his step-daughter was the one tasked with taking her out of her home to dine, she was the one who did not dress her.

You really expect him to not let his wife alone with her daughters, because they might take her out without dressing her?

I'm sure he had no idea they would set her up like that and blame him, or he would have been much less trusting.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

If your spouse is mentally able to consent, then doing these things is fine, up to and only if the consent is not verbally withdrawn, or they remain asleep.

If they remain asleep? Some people have/initiate sleep sex, like sleep walking. Waking them with rude refusal when you both love each other and want each other would be dumb. It would be like startling them in their sleep while they are rummaging through the fridge.

The sleep state may confuse and cause the pleasant dream to turn into a nightmare.

What if the spouse writes written consent forms up ahead of time so everybody can read it and know if they were having sex after dementia set in, or in a vegetative or semi-vegetative state that they still want and permit it with their spouse?

You seem to ignore all the issues the woman was having that were concerns of her daughters.

Actually, I'm saying Occam's razor indicates that they did not do what they could. They were older women, not raising little children or living in squalor. They were old enough to have savings, to be able to take time in their lives for her.

Perhaps the daughters knew they could not take care of their mother the way she needed care.

Then they should have found a properly equipped home. That was a classic, underequipped old people's mill.

Perhaps the husband didn't think their help was needed, so them helping care for her in her own home wasn't possible.

They did this all without warning while he left her with them. They didn't try to talk it out, they just took her away suddenly.

WE DON'T KNOW. All we do know is that the daughters were concerned (and rightly so given their statements if they are truthful)

What was the concern? Her living on her own or having sex after a diagnosis?

 

[Rusha]

:AMR:

Is your reading comprehension really this bad or are you just overly agitated, because surely, despite the fact that we are not using Spanish verbs in all their richness and past-tense descriptiveness, you should have been able to detect context?!

Don't project your own inability to connect the dots onto me.

I'll spell it out for you. He was good about dressing her when he was there for her, not when his children were supposed to be with her and standing in.

I will spell it out for you. Someone was always to be with her. She should have been dressed. Not expected to dress herself. YOU made the claim the husband dressed her. Any caretaker with half a brain KNOWS to make sure someone is dressed prior to helping them into their coat.

Obviously her coat was already on when the daughter picked her up. Obviously the woman dressed herself and put the coat on. You seem to believe the daughter should have looked underneath her coat to make sure she was dressed.

When a child goes to school with an empty lunch box and a teacher reports it and contacts the parent, are you one of those who claim "he/she was in your care ... so why didn't you make sure they had a lunch?"

When his step-daughter was the one tasked with taking her out of her home to dine, she was the one who did not dress her.

Sigh. Clearly you do NOT understand the job of caregivers. They are to groom and DRESS the person for the duration of the day in accordance to what is going on. That was HIS job. There is only one of two ways this went down.

The husband either put the coat on her KNOWING full well she was not properly dressed OR the woman dressed herself by only putting on her coat and shoes.

You really expect him to not let his wife alone with her daughters, because they might take her out without dressing her?

No, I expect HIM (her caregiver) to dress her instead of allowing her to dress herself. I guess you don't believe parents are responsible for making sure that when the kids leave the house that they are actually dressed underneath their jacket/poncho/shaw, etc.

I'm sure he had no idea they would set her up like that and blame him, or he would have been much less trusting.

There was no set up. He was her caregiver. That doesn't stop when a friend/pastor/social worker/nurse/relative stops in to see her or take her outside of the home.

The reason she was taken is because he wasn't even willing to dress her. He was fine with allowing her to put on a coat, open the front door and tell the daughter "she is ready to go".

 

[Sitamun]

Wow 1PM you are really determined to absolve this man of any and all responsibility aren't you. As a professional caregiver I can tell you fact that prior to the womans move to the nursing home, her husband as primary caregiver is resposible for her safety, and making sure that she is properly dressed for the day. HE has ultimate responsibility, no one else.

 

[Rusha]

Home Health Aide Job Responsibilities: Enables patients to stay in their homes by monitoring and recording patient condition; providing support and personal services; teaching families.

Home Health Aide Job Duties:

Monitors patient condition by observing physical and mental condition, intake and output, and exercise.

Supports patients by providing housekeeping and laundry services; shopping for food and other household requirements; preparing and serving meals and snacks; running errands.

Assists patients by providing personal services, such as, bathing, dressing, and grooming.

Helps patients care for themselves by teaching use of cane or walker, special utensils to eat, special techniques and equipment for personal hygiene.

Helps family members care for the patient by teaching appropriate ways to lift, turn, and re-position the patient; advising on nutrition, cleanliness, and housekeeping.

Records patient information by making entries in the patient journal; notifying nursing supervisor of changing or unusual conditions.

Maintains a safe, secure, and healthy patient environment by following asepses standards and procedures; maintaining security precautions; following prescribed dietary requirements and nutrition standards;

Updates job knowledge by participating in educational opportunities.

Protects the home care agency by adhering to professional standards, home care policies and procedures, federal, state, and local requirements.

Enhances service reputation by accepting ownership for accomplishing new and different requests; exploring opportunities to add value to job accomplishments.

http://hiring.monster.com/hr/hr-bes...iptions/home-health-aide-job-description.aspx

 

[Rusha]

Wow 1PM you are really determined to absolve this man of any and all responsibility aren't you. As a professional caregiver I can tell you fact that prior to the womans move to the nursing home, her husband as primary caregiver is resposible for her safety, and making sure that she is properly dressed for the day. HE has ultimate responsibility, no one else.

Indeed. I just posted the job requirements of what is to be expected from an in-home healthcare worker.

Also, I have actually performed the job. I never left it to the grown children of the woman I worked for to perform tasks that were clearly part of MY job duties.

 

[CabinetMaker]

:AMR:

Is your reading comprehension really this bad or are you just overly agitated, because surely, despite the fact that we are not using Spanish verbs in all their richness and past-tense descriptiveness, you should have been able to detect context?!

I'll spell it out for you. He was good about dressing her when he was there for her, not when his children were supposed to be with her and standing in.

When his step-daughter was the one tasked with taking her out of her home to dine, she was the one who did not dress her.

You really expect him to not let his wife alone with her daughters, because they might take her out without dressing her?

I'm sure he had no idea they would set her up like that and blame him, or he would have been much less trusting.

This rings false. I cannot imagine a daughter left to dress her mother for a lunch outing not dressing her mother. I can see a daughter coming to pick up her mother for a lunch date and finding her wearing a coat and ready to go. Seeing her Mom in a coat, it is reasonable to assume she dressed and ready to go. Sounds more like her husband just forgot. Or worse...

 

[Rusha]

This rings false. I cannot imagine a daughter left to dress her mother for a lunch outing not dressing her mother. I can see a daughter coming to pick up her mother for a lunch date and finding her wearing a coat and ready to go. Seeing her Mom in a coat, it is reasonable to assume she dressed and ready to go. Sounds more like her husband just forgot. Or worse...

THAT is exactly it .... and actually played a large part in why the woman ended up in a care facility.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Wow 1PM you are really determined to absolve this man of any and all responsibility aren't you. As a professional caregiver I can tell you fact that prior to the womans move to the nursing home, her husband as primary caregiver is resposible for her safety, and making sure that she is properly dressed for the day. HE has ultimate responsibility, no one else.

Did you ever read the story of Ham?

I noticed you dodged my points, which are important to the legal precedent being set by this case.

 

[rougueone]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other...able-to-consent-to-sex/ar-AAawO2C?ocid=HPCDHP

Seems from this developing court case, in some states if you want to be able to continue possessing the right to have sex as an older person, you might have to get cooperation from the medical community. But...

What if you wrote a living will, that, in case of senility, you still consent to sex with your partner unless you orally withdraw that consent?

Yes should still mean yes even if you are old.

I think people should try to protect that right.

People should think it's wonderful that those two elderly love birds still have passion, and it's probably what keeps Donna alive in that cold place. What will happen now - now that her soul mate is taken from her? Why must he spend his last years on earth rotting behind bars for doing what he and his love have always done willingly and joyfully?

I have to agree with Rusha " There is no *honoring of old love* when one of the parties doesn't know what is going on around them."

However consentual sex is not to be interfered with.
We are certainly living in days where Governments, " Beast" are mandating what our private lives can be and not. These events are leading to the final Government on earth. I strongly suspect Islam will be that.
BTW, here some medical evil: " Men" who only have a surgical transformation to their lower genitalia. I was asked a year ago if I was pregnant. I am a man. But hospitals have to ask both genders.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...en-who-become-pregnant-face-health-challenges


2 Timothy 3:2-5 New King James Version (NKJV)

2 For men will be ---lovers of themselves----, lovers of money, ---------boasters-----, proud, -----blasphemers-----, disobedient to parents, unthankful, ----unholy-----, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, -----without self-control-----, brutal, ----despisers of good-----, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! (...being many ' churches" and the TV charlatans ) .

 

[Sitamun]

Did you ever read the story of Ham?

I noticed you dodged my points, which are important to the legal precedent being set by this case.

Which points were those? Being honest, if I've overlooked something it's probably because it didn't seem worth replying to.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

So you didn't read the story of Ham. The point you ignored is found also in Matt 7:12, in case you were wondering. I don't believe Donna would appreciate you using her mental weakness against her husband in this fashion.

 

[Rusha]

Maybe Donna would have appreciated her husband not making her the topic of several news articles either.