ECT Holiness, a gift of God or a commandment?

[nikolai_42]

<groan> forget I said anything. I need a vacation from this whirlwind of nonsense.

For you want a top-down summary, if our life in Christ is more like the law in the sense that it is a series of commands to be fulfilled - after trusting in Christ - then the thread that should go from the time we first believed to our final breath is cut up. In other words, while I agree that we shouldn't be going on about how we were first saved and not growing, and I agree that our obedience to Christ is important, the fact remains that everything in our life in Christ seems to be inextricably connected to that which was first begun. It is all the work God began in us and will finish in us. But it is His work. So being holy is not a command that is rewarded, but rather the fruit of belief that is grounded in being in Him.

 

[Cross Reference]

For you want a top-down summary, if our life in Christ is more like the law in the sense that it is a series of commands to be fulfilled - after trusting in Christ - then the thread that should go from the time we first believed to our final breath is cut up. In other words, while I agree that we shouldn't be going on about how we were first saved and not growing, and I agree that our obedience to Christ is important, the fact remains that everything in our life in Christ seems to be inextricably connected to that which was first begun. It is all the work God began in us and will finish in us. But it is His work. So being holy is not a command that is rewarded, but rather the fruit of belief that is grounded in being in Him.

You express no understanding re "growing". Obviously you aren't except in, book reading. They have a name for such believers.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

]

You express no understanding re "growing". Obviously you aren't except in, book reading. They have a name for such believers.

The prophets including Adam were only holy while they were being moved by the Holy Spirit.

None of them were righteous or having understanding.

None of them were led by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore nobody is holy unless they are the first born male in Israel, that is Christ.

Men as well as women who all have an inner man.

You may start here and proceed.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, …

Your fullness of time has not yet come, call on him to quicken you.

 

[Cross Reference]

The prophets including Adam were only holy while they were being moved by the Holy Spirit.

None of them were righteous or having understanding.

None of them were led by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore nobody is holy unless they are the first born male in Israel, that is Christ.

Men as well as women who all have an inner man.

You may start here and proceed.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, …

Your fullness of time has not yet come, call on him to quicken you.

<O my~~>

And you may start here when considering if man was capable of righteousness that brought favor with God.
From the Old Testament:

"if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
Ezekiel 18:21-24 (KJV)

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Excellent choice of scripture!!!

<O my~~>

And you may start here when considering if man was capable of righteousness that brought favor with God.
From the Old Testament:

"if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

This is one who believes and gets baptized into Christ and like you, thinks he has swept his house clean.

But......

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

Ezekiel 18:21-24 (KJV)

This is when the eight wicked spirits come in and now the state of that man is worse than at the first.

It is in the fullness of this time when God will send his son.

Even if you do not believe me, what will it hurt to believe that if you call on him to quicken you he will surely come?.

We can all use some perfecting, hunh?

 

[Cross Reference]

Excellent choice of scripture!!!

Thank you.

This is one who believes and gets baptized into Christ and like you, thinks he has swept his house clean.

And I have.

This is when the eight wicked spirits come in and now the state of that man is worse than at the first.

It is in the fullness of this time when God will send his son.

Even if you do not believe me, what will it hurt to believe that if you call on him to quicken you he will surely come?.

Huh? How can a person have his house swept clean without first receiving the Holy Spirit? And if the one in question, in the afterwards, does not fill his empty clean house with the life of God by the Holy Spirit . . . that after all the cautions have gone unheeded that this should happen: "Then [the unclean spirit[ says, 'I will return to my house from which I came; . . . . . . and take along with me seven other spirits more wicked than myself, that the last state of that man will become worse than the first. . . . . . " Better he had not known the way of righteousness than to know and yet return to his own lawlessness.
Matthew 12:44-45 (NASB)

We can all use some perfecting, hunh?

Absolutely but, how can that be without a rich understanding of what the scriptures are trying to teach us?

 

[revpete]

If a gift why the admonishment from Peter to be so?:

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15-16 (KJV)

. . . . especially since no one is righteous nor ever can be? Rom. 3:10

Correct or no?

It is impossible to be holy in the sense that God is, only Jesus has ever lived a sinless life and we as fallen sinners cannot. Peter would fail his own command here, His refusal to eat with Gentile Christians would immediately disqualify him. Peter's exhortation is that Christians should live holy and righteously as much as is possible while in this body. He refers to the OT because their holiness depended on keeping God's Law, something which could not be done, as Paul teaches in many places. It is an exhortation not a command because if it were not one could obey it.

Blessings: Pete

 

[Cross Reference]

It is impossible to be holy in the sense that God is, only Jesus has ever lived a sinless life and we as fallen sinners cannot.

Cannot, you say. What does being sinless or fallen have to do with it. [I hope you think about this long and hard before you answer].

[Peter would fail his own command here, His refusal to eat with Gentile Christians would immediately disqualify him. Peter's exhortation is that Christians should live holy and righteously as much as is possible while in this body.

Yes!

He refers to the OT because their holiness depended on keeping God's Law, something which could not be done, as Paul teaches in many places. It is an exhortation not a command because if it were not one could obey it.

I don't believe holiness but faithfulness to obedience that God demanded for having His favor.

Consider it all to be the law of the flesh as opposed to the law of God. One internal as opposed to one that was external . . until Jesus? Read Rom 7 in that light and see what you come with. Lets discuss.

 

[revpete]

Cannot, you say. What does being sinless or fallen have to do with it. [I hope you think about this long and hard before you answer].

In order to be holy in the way that God is Holy one would have to be sinless and that for fallen humanity Is impossible.


Yes!

I don't believe holiness but faithfulness to obedience that God demanded for having His favor.

Consider it all to be the law of the flesh as opposed to the law of God. One internal as opposed to one that was external . . until Jesus? Read Rom 7 in that light and see what you come with. Lets discuss.

Rom Ch 7 is about Paul's struggle against his flesh. We must be careful of eisegesis here. Let scripture speak for itself. You and I could "come up with" different interpretations and they could both be wrong.

Pete

 

[Cross Reference]

Rom Ch 7 is about Paul's struggle against his flesh. We must be careful of eisegesis here. Let scripture speak for itself.

Pete &#55357;&#56420;

I thought that was what I did to conclude my findings correct. Where do you think I am wrong? What was the law in his "members" he referred to? I can very easily guess a right answer.

 

[JonahofAkron]

I thought that was what I did to conclude my findings correct. Where do you think I am wrong? What was the law in his "members" he referred to? I can very easily guess a right answer.

It is the nature of humanity to be sinful. That is what he consistently wars with in his members.

 

[Cross Reference]

It is the nature of humanity to be sinful. That is what he consistently wars with in his members.

It is vanity that is sealed to the nature of man by Adam's transgression. As it was with Cain (Gen 4:7), man is given to overcome it. THAT is what Paul was referring to when inserting himself into the understanding he was attempting to convey. Vanity [self-gratification] is the law if the flesh.

This is the battle any new born child of God will continually face when making choices that might affect his relationship with God. You might consider it the same means to test man as He used it to test Adam. . . and Jesus.

We need thank God for Romans 8:1-2

 

[JonahofAkron]

It is vanity that is sealed to the nature of man by Adam's transgression. As it was with Cain (Gen 4:7), man is given to overcome it. THAT is what Paul was referring to when inserting himself into the understanding he was attempting to convey. Vanity [self-gratification] is the law if the flesh.

This is the battle any new born child of God will continually face when making choices that might affect his relationship with God. You might consider it the same means to test man as He used it to test Adam. . . and Jesus.

We need thank God for Romans 8:1-2

....ok. I said that.

 

[Cross Reference]

....ok. I said that.

This is what yu said/wrote:

It is the nature of humanity to be sinful.

Vanity is not sin. It is the doorway/venue for sin to happen. That is why this from Paul: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" Philippians 2:5 (KJV) and this from Jesus:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me".

"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."John 15:4,7 (KJV)

 

[Nick M]

It is both. Israel was put away was called to be Holy. They had ordinances to set them apart for no other reason than to be set apart.

I have been set apart by the Holy Spirit. Along with all the saints.


2 Timothy 1

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

 

[theophilus]

Heb. 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Holiness is sinlessness. We don't do it well in the flesh. As we practice holiness, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we get better and better at it.

We ARE sinless in the Beloved and we shall be perfectly sinless on the other side of the moment we die.

I can hardly wait.

 

[Lon]

Holiness, a gift of God or a commandment?

Yes. Leviticus 11:44b Hebrews 10:10

▲Nick just beat me to it▲

2 Timothy 1:9b holiness which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Great verse.



("and" rather than "or" for the OP question)

 

[Cross Reference]

Heb. 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Holiness is sinlessness. We don't do it well in the flesh. As we practice holiness, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we get better and better at it.

We ARE sinless in the Beloved and we shall be perfectly sinless on the other side of the moment we die.

I can hardly wait.

In the sense you have it, I would have to think you mean for us now that we are only capable of doing acts of holiness. That sort makes sense until we factor in that, for the new born possessing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it all becomes acts of His life furthered by the means of our flesh, the result of our hearts being in tune with His. What do you think?

 

[theophilus]

In the sense you have it, I would have to think you mean for us now that we are only capable of doing acts of holiness.

We are sinless now, in Christ, but the flesh still wants to sin.

I am a sinner and everything I do is sinful insofar as "sinners sin." Is it an act of holiness if I thank God for my food and ask Him to bless it?

What is an act of holiness? An act of sinlessness?

That sort makes sense until we factor in that, for the new born possessing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it all becomes acts of His life furthered by the means of our flesh, the result of our hearts being in tune with His. What do you think?

If I am clothed with the righteousness of Christ and have put on the new man is everything I do holy? No. Forgiven, Yes. Chastised - please.

Or,

I don't quite understand the question.

 

[theophilus]

It's a gift and a command. We have been gifted the holiness of the Lord and are commanded to be holy.

Sometimes I am not very holy.