Heretical?

[6days]

According to science, humans did not evolve from monkeys.

Funny!
The reason its funny is evolutionists are often quick to claim a few bones from racoon size animals represent a distant ancestor. Yet they get a bit haughty over the generalization of the 'monkey to man' belief system.

Also..... science, or the study of genetics actually would suggest almost the opposite of the monkey to man belief. Humanity is not showing 'up hill' evolution. Instead genetics shows downhill evolution. Our genome is increasingly becoming more prone to genetic disorders / diseases. Each succesive generation has more harmful mutations than the previous generation. Science helps confirm the truth of God's Word. We were wonderfully made but live in a fallen world.

No one know exactly how life began

Actually...we do. You can find out about it in Gen. 1

but science does not say that life evolved from non life.

Science itself says nothing. However we do have some scientific laws we have created such as the law of biogenesis stating that life only comes from life. Atheists and many evolutionists don't seem to believe what science 'says'.

 

[Ktoyou]

According to science, humans did not evolve from monkeys. They evolved from a common ancestor with chimpanzees, who are apes, not monkeys .

It does not matter; it is still monkey business.

 

[patrick jane]

It does not matter; it is still monkey business.

:chuckle:

 

[Cruciform]

Then what, allegedly, did humans evolve from? Rocks is the official theory. In the beginning, There were rocks. And it rained on the rocks and from those rocks the amino acids formed which then magically formed the first cell which evolved into men and mangos.

Google "straw man fallacy," since that is the particular logical error you're engaged in here.

 

[Cruciform]

I agree, and that is why I put the word science in quote marks. There are people who teach things as if it is science, but instead they are promoting secular ideas about our origins. ( secular 'science')

Again, there IS no "secular science," there is only science. Science works exactly the same whether one is a theist or not.

If a person teaches from the pulpit that death existed in our world for millions of years before sin - then they are teaching secular 'science'...and preaching a compromised gospel.

Why would a pastor be teaching science from the pulpit, and what expertise could he possibly have to do so?

Science helps confirm the truth of God's Word.

Then allow it to do so, and stop trying to censor it. In any case, science and theology are two quite distinct approaches to truth.

Science never contradicts His Word.

And his word never contradicts science.

Interesting that you so willingly disregard the Bible.

I disregard the Bible when I'm doing science. When I'm doing theology, I pay close attention to the Bible. Which do you want to discuss---theology, or science?

We are not descendants of monkeys, rocks, or ape like creatures.

That's a matter of science, not theology. Thus, what you're engaging in here is pseudo-science.

We were created in His image on the 6th day... man formed from the dust and woman from mans rib.

Your theological conviction is noted---just don't call it "science."



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

It does not matter; it is still monkey business.

The theological opinions taught to you by your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect are noted. However, they have nothing whatsoever to do with science.

 

[6days]

I agree, and that is why I put the word science in quote marks. There are people who teach things as if it is science, but instead they are promoting secular ideas about our origins. ( secular 'science')

Again, there IS no "secular science," there is only science. Science works exactly the same whether one is a theist or not.

I agree, and that is why I put the word science in quote marks. There are people who teach things as if it is science, but instead they are promoting secular ideas about our origins. ( secular 'science'). You are welcome to call it evolutionism if that term suits you better.

If a person teaches from the pulpit that death existed in our world for millions of years before sin - then they are teaching secular 'science'...and preaching a compromised gospel.

Why would a pastor be teaching sciencefrom the pulpit, and what expertise could he possibly have to do so?

If a person teaches from the pulpit that death existed in our world for millions of years before sin - then they are teaching secular 'science'...and preaching a compromised gospel.

Perhaps, you should ask why the Pope has a history of being wrong both on matters of science and theology ( Galileo as example...or more recently, the Vatican astronomer)

Science helps confirm the truth of God's Word.

Then allow it to do so...

Science continues to do so. Science continues exposing flawed evolutionary reasoning. (Poor design arguments, junk DNA, Neandertals, psuedogenes, peppered moth, etc etc)

And science continues revealing the awe factor of our Creator. Science is a form of worship as we get glimpses of the omniscience and omnipotence of our Creator in the cell...in our universe...in design features of living organisms etc.

Rom. 1:20
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God

In any case, science and theology are two quite distinct approaches to truth.

Perhaps. However there can only be one absolute truth which is God'sWord. If you place your trust in secular opinions / secular science, or even religious reasoning, then you are on shifting sands. We see over and over and over where what secular science teaches today is proven wrong tomorrow.

Science never contradicts His Word.

And his word never contradicts science.

Same as what I said.
However His Word certainly contradicts many evolutionary beliefs. His Word certainly contradicts many scientists.

Interesting that you so willingly disregard the Bible.

I disregard the Bible when I'm doing science.

Uh.... but you don't understand what science is, so you certainly don't do science.

When I'm doing theology, I pay close attention to the Bible. Which do you want to discuss---theology, or science?

Uh... but you don't seem to understand God'sWord or science. God's Word is inerrant when it touches on history, philosophy, science etc.

We are not descendants of monkeys, rocks, or ape like creatures.

That's a matter of science, not theology. [/quote]But... you don't understand science.... nor God's Word. God tells us that He formed man from the dust then woman from mans rib, and on the 6th day. He tells us that death came into our world due to the sin of one man. We understand from that why Christ suffered physical death on our behalf. When you rely on secular opinions that contradict God's Word, you don't really trust your Creator.

 

[Rosenritter]

Google "straw man fallacy," since that is the particular logical error you're engaged in here.

It is hardly a straw man argument when I respond to your assertion. You objected to the generalization that someone made of "man from monkeys." It was technically incorrect, as monkeys and man would be a "common descendant" according to the theory. I said that evolution more accurately claims that man evolved from rocks. Rock would be the common ancestor of both man and monkey under the theory.

You said it didn't. So tell us what you believe the evolution theory says man evolved from. And when you answer that, I'll ask where that came from. Until we get back to rocks. Seems to me that I understand the theory better than you do.

 

[Cruciform]

Perhaps, you should ask why the Pope has a history of being wrong both on matters of science and theology ( Galileo as example...or more recently, the Vatican astronomer)

• First, the Pope has no authority to pronounce definitively upon matters of science so, when he expresses an opinion on science, it is merely that.
• Second, the Catholic Church teaches infallibly and authoritatively on matters of doctrine and morals (theology). The fact that this might contradict the entirely non-authoritative opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect doesn't change that fact.

Science continues to do so.

Yes, genuine science is self-correcting. Creationist pseudoscience, however, certainly doesn't qualify, and itself needs correcting.

And science continues revealing the awe factor of our Creator. Science is a form of worship as we get glimpses of the omniscience and omnipotence of our Creator in the cell...in our universe...in design features of living organisms etc.

Your theological opinions are noted.

However there can only be one absolute truth which is God's Word.

Yes, God's word (message) is indeed absolute theological truth. Your preferred interpretations of God's word, however, carry no inherent truth or authority whatsoever. Big difference there.

However His Word certainly contradicts many evolutionary beliefs.

Rather, your preferred theological interpretations of God's word contradict many scientific evolutionary conclusions. Big difference there.

His Word certainly contradicts many scientists.

...scientists who are doing theology?

...but you don't understand what science is, so you certainly don't do science...you don't seem to understand God's Word or science.

Now you've ranged into an area where you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Don't embarrass yourself.

When you rely on [scientific conclusions] that contradict God's Word...

Rather, they merely contradict your preferred theological interpretations of God's word, which is something else entirely.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

It is hardly a straw man argument when I respond to your assertion.

Your description in Post #17 simply misrepresents what evolution actually is and how it works. This is the textbook definition of a straw man fallacy.

So tell us what you believe the evolution theory says man evolved from. And when you answer that, I'll ask where that came from. Until we get back to rocks. Seems to me that I understand the theory better than you do.

Are you asking about the origin of species (biology), or the origin of life (biochemistry)?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[6days]

Why would a pastor be teaching science from the pulpit, and what expertise could he possibly have to do so?

Cruciform answers..."the Pope has no authority to pronounce definitively upon matters of science so, when he expresses an opinion on science, it is merely that."

Yes, genuine science is self-correcting. Creationist pseudoscience, however, certainly doesn't qualify, and itself needs correcting.

Fallacy of shifting the goalposts. We were not talking about creation science nor creation pseudoscience. I did however mention that evolutionism has a history of continually being wrong, (ideas that wither like dead flowers) whereas God's Word is inerrant.
Is. 40:8 "The grass withers and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever."

And science continues revealing the awe factor of our Creator. Science is a form of worship as we get glimpses of the omniscience and omnipotence of our Creator in the cell...in our universe...in design features of living organisms etc.

Your theological opinions are noted.

Sad you are so committed to secular ideology that you deny scripture. What I said is that science can be a form of worship revealing our Creator. Rom. 1:20 "For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God."

However there can only be one absolute truth which is God's Word.

Yes, God's word (message) is indeed absolute theological truth...

His Word is absolute truth in all matters..... theology, history, prophecy etc.

However His Word certainly contradicts many evolutionary beliefs.

Rather, your preferred theological interpretations of God's word contradict many scientific evolutionary conclusions. Big difference there.

Ex. 20:11 does not require interpretation "For in six days the LORD made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy."[/I] What you seem to believe is that what God says can not be accepted at face value.

And, sadly you seem to accept at face value the constantly changing and false beliefs of evolutionism.

His Word certainly contradicts many scientists.

...scientists who are doing theology?

Certainly! Atheism and theistic evolution are vain philosophies that God's Word contradicts.
Col. 2:8 "Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ."[/I]

...but you don't understand what science is, so you certainly don't do science...you don't seem to understand God's Word or science.

Now you've ranged into an area where you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Don't embarrass yourself.

Cruciform, you demonstrate no understanding of what science is. You are confusing your anti-Biblical beliefs about the past with science. And, like I said, you have a poor understanding of God's Word. You seem to think it is only theology. His Word also is our history Book, upon which is the foundation of the Gospel.

 

[iamaberean]

Lets say that heresy is a deviation from standard Biblical teaching. If you wish we could discuss how the Catholic church has adopted positions over time that contradict the Bible, or perhaps even contradict their own previous positions.

There is no denomination that has all truth! Don't pick on the Catholics.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Would you consider it heresy for a Christian to teach that life arose from non life; and people evolved from monkeys. A recent article from a biologist at Biologos,
"...as a Christian biologist I would be perfectly fine with ... God (setting) up the cosmos in a way to allow for abiogenesis to take place. Perhaps he created the first life directly—though, as we will see, there are lines of evidence that I think are suggestive of the former rather than the latter. "
http://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-ve...iogenesis-and-the-origins-of-the-genetic-code

Heretical?

Preaching unproven scientific theories that are not science (knowledge) and also contradict the supernatural power that that the Bible teaches, results in lies against science, the Bible and God. How could it not be heresy?

 

[Rosenritter]

Preaching unproven scientific theories that are not science (knowledge) and also contradict the supernatural power that that the Bible teaches, results in lies against science, the Bible and God. How could it not be heresy?

When I see a non-Christian teaching unproven philosophy as fact or science, I expect that is par for the course.When I see someone who claims to be Christian doing the same, I hold them to a higher standard. They are supposed to know better because they should have access to both the scripture and the Holy Spirit. If denying the power of God and the authority of scripture is not heresy, then what is?

Here is the reference we have to heresy in the scripture:

2Pe 2:1-2 KJV
(1) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
(2) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Does the evolution teaching:
1) Deny the Lord that bought them?
2) by reason of them the truth shall be evil spoken of?

The scripture tells us that we (and all living things) are the specific creation of the Lord. See Genesis 1, John 1:3, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11. As such giving that glory to another (such as a nameless god of death, random chance, and infinite time) and claiming that our world exists without our Creator God is denying the Lord that bought them. Are these teachers of this doctrine of the denial of God and Christ the reason by which the truth is evil spoken of? All you need do is visit any evolutionist forum and you will see the truth be spoken evil of.

So yes, I would say that by very definition it would be heresy.

 

[Cruciform]

Fallacy of shifting the goalposts. We were not talking about creation science nor creation pseudoscience.

The moment you mentioned God, the Bible, and theology, we were talking about creation science/pseudoscience.

I did however mention that evolutionism has a history of continually being wrong...

The mere fact that your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect happens to disagree with evolution certainly does not mean that evolution is "wrong." It only means that you are begging the question. Try again.

...whereas God's Word is inerrant.

Your preferred interpretations of God's word, however, is not.

Sad you are so committed to secular ideology that you deny scripture.

Rather, I deny your chosen sect's favored interpretations of Scripture. Big difference there.

His Word is absolute truth in all matters...theology, history, prophecy etc.

...assuming that the Bible intends to communicate "history," etc.

What you seem to believe is that what God says can not be accepted at face value.

God's word in Scripture should be accepted as communicating exactly what its human writers intended to communicate.

You are confusing your anti-Biblical beliefs about the past...

• First, non-biblical does not equate to "unbiblical."
• Second, my postulating conclusions that are rejected by your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect certainly does not make those conclusions "anti-biblical." Try again.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[patrick jane]

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

You poor lost soul - you deserve an extra indulgence

 

[Cruciform]

There is no denomination that has all truth! Don't pick on the Catholics.

Thank you for your gentle defense of us Catholics! :thumb:

As a Catholic, however, I would point out two things about your initial comment:

• First, the Catholic Church is not a "denomination" akin to those of the Protestant phenomenon. Rather, it is the one original historic Church founded by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D. As the one historic Church of Jesus Christ, it simply cannot be rightly termed a "denomination," since the Catholic Church did not separate from any previously existing church---it is the very first and only Church established by Christ.
• Second, as Christ's one historic Church---the Body of Christ, who is the Head---the Church does indeed possess "all truth" just as Jesus himself promised she would (Jn. 14:26; 16:13). This promise was given to no other self-proclaimed "church," denomination, or sect. It belongs solely to Christ's one historic Catholic Church.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

You poor lost soul - you deserve an extra indulgence

Come back if you ever manage to come up with any actual proof whatsoever for anything you might say on this forum. Until then, don't bother.

 

[6days]

The moment you mentioned God, the Bible, and theology, we were talking about creation science/pseudoscience.

Correction.... you are the one discussing "creation science/pseudoscience". The question I raised was if it is heresy to teach life arose from non-life in a manner contrary to God's Word. And part of the question was 'is it heresy to teach humans evolved from monkeys', which is contrary to God's Word. It is not creation science to quote Ex. 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy."

I did however mention that evolutionism has a history of continually being wrong...

The mere fact that your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic secthappens to disagree with evolution certainly does not mean that evolution is "wrong." It only means that you are begging the question. Try again.

Fallacy of moving the goal posts. The fact is -evolutionism has a long history of being proven wrong by science. Would you like some examples?

...whereas God's Word is inerrant.

Your preferred interpretations of God's word, however, is not.

I haven't given any interpretations....I did quote some verses though. For example... "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned". Rom. 5:12

Sad you are so committed to secular ideology that you deny scripture.

Rather, I deny your chosen sect's favoredinterpretations of Scripture. Big difference there.

Again... scripture speaks for itself. The verse you seem to object to now is Rom. 1:20 "For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God."

His Word is absolute truth in all matters...theology, history, prophecy etc.

...assuming that the Bible intends tocommunicate "history," etc.

As stated before... You really don't seem to understand the Bible. Of course the Bible communicates history. Jesus several times referred to events in Genesis as real history. Jesus explains the problem of your unbelief, "But since you do not believe what (Moses) wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:47

What you seem to believe is that what God says can not be accepted at face value.

God's word in Scripture should be accepted as communicating exactly what its human writers intended to communicate.

You really have a low view of Scripture. It isn't what the human writers intended to communicate..... Scripture is what God communicates to us. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" 2 Tim. 3:16

You are confusing your anti-Biblical beliefsabout the past.

..
•First, non-biblical does not equate to "unbiblical."

Your beliefs are anti-Biblical, non Biblical and unbiblical. Atheists often seem to understand if they can get people to compromise on Genesis, they have succeeded in destroying the Gospel. Frank Zindler, an atheist in a debate with William Craig said "Now that we know that Adam and Eve never were real people the central myth of Christianity is destroyed. If there never was an Adam and Eve there never was an original sin. If there never was an original sin there is no need of salvation. If there is no need of salvation there is no need of a savior. And I submit that puts Jesus, historical or otherwise, into the ranks of the unemployed. I think that evolution is absolutely the death knell of Christianity."

[
•Second, my postulating conclusions that are rejected by your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect certainly does not make those conclusions "anti-biblical." Try again

Cruciform...it isn't my "recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect", that makes your conclusions wrong..... it is God's Word, and the Words of Christ which make your conclusions false...or possibly heretical. "Col. 2:8 "Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ."

 

[Stripe]

[FONT=Georgia][LIST][*][B][U]First[/U][/B] of all, "heresy" applies specifically to matters of [I][U]doctrine[/U][/I] (theology), not to questions of science (biology). So the answer to your question would be an unequivocal "no."
[*][B][U]Second[/U][/B], the principle of organic evolution with respect to the human species in no way suggests that "people evolved [I][U]from monkeys[/U][/I]." You may want to adequately educate yourself in matters of science before commenting further on such matters.[/LIST][I]Gaudium de veritate[/I],Cruciform
+T+[/FONT]

Theology: God created man on day 6 from the dust off the Earth.

Science: Life does not arise from non-life.

You might want to get to grips with simple facts before weighing in. :up:

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