Right Divider
Body part
It doesn't have to be the exact same piece of hardware.
(You're sticking to those talking points nicely, BTW)
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(You're sticking to those talking points nicely, BTW)
Freedm
New member
o.k. So if it doesn't have to be the exact same throne, then what makes it "the throne of David"?
(I'm just trying to follow this logic through to see where it leads)
It's another way of saying that Jesus will be King of Israel.
It's a symbol of a position, not an actual chair.
Stop taking the Bible either woodenly literally or completely figuratively.
Freedm
New member
Yes, I know it's a symbol of a position but Right Divider said that "Jesus is King but not on David's throne", so I'm just trying to understand how he makes that distinction. I want to know how he defines "the throne of David".
Please link to the post where RD said this.
Solomon took the throne of David.
Solomon became king of Israel.
Those two sentences mean the EXACT SAME THING.
The throne itself is just a chair.
It's not the chair that is being talked about. It's the position it represents.
Freedm
New member
Freedm
New member
Why are you answering for RD? I'm trying to understand his position, not yours.
Right Divider
Body part
I'm pretty sure that JR and I share the same view on this subject.
Mat 25:31-34 KJV When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
This describes the Lord taking His throne and judging those that will or will not enter the kingdom.
The phrase:
Is not what RD said.
Here is what RD said:
Please pay attention.
Because we, as RD just said, share the same position. Understanding my position on this topic is the same as understanding his, because it is the same.
Freedm
New member
I know what he said. You're splitting hairs.
Right Divider
Body part
He's not "splitting hairs", he's paying attention to details. You should too.
Freedm
New member
It doesn't change my question because that (yet) part is irrelevant to it. You said you believe Christ is King but not on David's throne (yet). So how do you distinguish between the two. How do you define "sitting on David's throne"?
Right Divider
Body part
David's throne was on the earth. Until Christ returns, He will not be sitting on the throne on the earth.
Israel was promised a land and a kingdom in that land (with Christ as the king).
Heb 2:8 KJV Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
When will "all things" be put under Him?
God's Truth
New member
David's throne is a throne over Israel. That is God's throne. But the Jews wanted a man over them and that is when they got Saul. Jesus is that man who is over them now and over everyone and everything.
First the judgment of Satan and him being thrown in the lake of fire, and then the judgment of the living and the dead, and then death and Hades are thrown in the lake of fire.
When Jesus comes back, it will be at the time of the resurrection, and it will be too late for Jews or anyone to repent and be saved.
When all this is done, then Jesus hands the kingdom to the Father.
First the judgment of Satan and him being thrown in the lake of fire, and then the judgment of the living and the dead, and then death and Hades are thrown in the lake of fire.
When Jesus comes back, it will be at the time of the resurrection, and it will be too late for Jews or anyone to repent and be saved.
When all this is done, then Jesus hands the kingdom to the Father.
Freedm
New member
Well, here's the thing. I believe everything has already been put under his feet, because we are told as much in a couple of different places.
1 Corinthians 15:25-27
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
Ephesians 1:22-23
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
Obviously those two verses seem to contradict the verse you quoted, which is Hebrews 2:8. What do you think of that apparent contradiction? How do you decide which verse is correct? Do you ignore 1 Cor 15 and Ephesians 1? Or do you have a different explanation for those two verses?
Right Divider
Body part
So you believe that the writer of Hebrews was wrong?
Paul is QUOTING prophecy
Psa 8:5-9 KJV For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. (6) Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: (7) All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; (8) The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. (9) O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Hebrews clarified that this has not actually been fulfilled in the sense of the kingdom of Christ on the earth.
Paul is referring to the body of Christ here, which is distinct from Christ's earthly kingdom.
See above.
Freedm
New member
No, Hebrews is definitely not wrong, but the KJV translation is rather misleading. It can easily be misunderstood to be referring to Jesus as "he", but in fact "he" refers to man in general, as in mankind. The NIV makes this a lot more obvious by using the word "them" instead of "he".
Look at the NIV translation.
Hebrews 2
It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little[a] lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”[c]
In putting everything under them,[d] God left nothing that is not subject to them.[e] Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.[f] 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. 11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.[g] 12 He says,
“I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises.”[h]
Notice some important things here:
1. This is speaking of the world to come, during which time we too will have everything under our feet, as Jesus does.
2. Notice the word used throughout is "them" not "he", referring to mankind, not Jesus.
3. Jesus was a pioneer for us, but many sons and daughters will be brought to glory (not only Jesus).
4. Jesus calls us brothers and sisters, which puts us on a level playing field with Him
5. And most importantly, notice that verse 9 starts by comparing Jesus to those who were referenced in the preceding verses.
Did God not say that we are all gods and sons of the most high?
Psalm 82:9
“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’
And did Jesus not confirm the same when the Pharisees questioned his claim to be God?
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
And did John not tell us that we are children of God, and when Jesus returns we will be like him?
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him.
And did Paul not say that we would be co-heirs with Christ, sharing in his glory?
Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
So knowing all that, it makes perfect sense that in Hebrews 2 we see an entire summary of this story, which is to say that mankind does not yet have the glory, but Jesus does now have the glory.
Right Divider
Body part
We have so many "language experts" here on TOL.
No, you are not more capable than the team that translated the KJV.
The NIV is an absolute and utter piece of garbage.
Freedm
New member
There's no need to be a language expert to understand Hebrews 2.
I didn't say they translated it incorrectly, I said their translation is misleading due to the use of the word "he" when there are two parties being talked about; Man and Jesus. Their translation makes it unclear which party they're referring to when they use the pronoun "he".
Why do you say that?