ECT Help needed. Best Rebuttals to Jews For Judaism

[Right Divider]

There's no need to be a language expert to understand Hebrews 2.

Then why do you have problems with it?

I didn't say they translated it incorrectly, I said their translation is misleading due to the use of the word "he" when there are two parties being talked about; Man and Jesus. Their translation makes it unclear which party they're referring to when they use the pronoun "he".

I disagree. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate.

Why do you say that?

Because it has an immense bias that is obvious to anyone.

I good example is Eph 3:6 where the word "Israel" is ADDED even though it appears in NONE of the Greek manuscripts.

 

[Freedm]

Because it has an immense bias that is obvious to anyone.

I good example is Eph 3:6 where the word "Israel" is ADDED even though it appears in NONE of the Greek manuscripts.

Fair point, but you must know that the KJV also has an immense bias on certain topics. Do you consider the KJV an equally absolutely and utter piece of garbage?

 

[Freedm]

I disagree. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate.

Not sure how I can further elaborate on what I already told you. Let me repeat: I didn't say they translated it incorrectly, I said their translation is misleading due to the use of the word "he" when there are two parties being talked about; Man and Jesus. Their translation makes it unclear which party they're referring to when they use the pronoun "he".

What about my explanation is unclear to you that it requires elaboration?

 

[Freedm]

Then why do you have problems with it?

I have no problems with Hebrews 2. Why would you say that?

 

[Right Divider]

Fair point, but you must know that the KJV also has an immense bias on certain topics. Do you consider the KJV an equally absolutely and utter piece of garbage?

Your unfounded opinion does not mean anything to me.

 

[Right Divider]

Not sure how I can further elaborate on what I already told you. Let me repeat: I didn't say they translated it incorrectly, I said their translation is misleading due to the use of the word "he" when there are two parties being talked about; Man and Jesus. Their translation makes it unclear which party they're referring to when they use the pronoun "he".

What about my explanation is unclear to you that it requires elaboration?

Quote the scripture and highlight the word in question. Then we can discuss.

 

[Freedm]

Your unfounded opinion does not mean anything to me.

I guess neither do facts.

 

[Freedm]

Quote the scripture and highlight the word in question. Then we can discuss.

You mean like I did in post 38?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Can someone please give rebuttals to their arguments? Thanks.

There are so many conflicting prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament that the Jewish sages decided that there had to be two Messiahs instead of a single one.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies about Messiah ben Joseph during His first coming and will fulfill the prophecies about Messiah ben David at His second coming.

Here is an excerpt from an Orthodox Jewish website about it:

Moshiach 101 Appendix II Jewish tradition speaks of two redeemers, each one called Mashiach. Both are involved in ushering in the Messianic era. They are Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yossef. The term Mashiach unqualified always refers to Mashiach ben David (Mashiach the descendant of David) of the tribe of Judah. He is the actual (final) redeemer who shall rule in the Messianic age. All that was said in our text relates to him. Mashiach ben Yossef [...] will come first, before the final redeemer [...] The essential task of Mashiach ben Yossef is to act as precursor to Mashiach ben David: he will prepare the world for the coming of the final redeemer. Different sources attribute to him different functions, some even charging him with tasks traditionally associated with Mashiach ben David (such as the ingathering of the exiles, the rebuilding of the Bet Hamikdash, and so forth). [...] Mashiach ben Yossef will be killed. This is described in the prophecy of Zechariah, who says of this tragedy that "they shall mourn him as one mourns for an only child." (Zechariah 12:10).12 His death will be followed by a period of great calamities. These new tribulations shall be the final test for Israel, and shortly thereafter Mashiach ben David shall come, avenge his death, resurrect him, and inaugurate the Messianic era of everlasting peace and bliss. This, in brief, is the general perception of the "second Mashiach," [...] Quite significantly, R. Saadiah Gaon (one of the few to elaborate on the role of Mashiach ben Yossef) notes that this sequence is not definite but contingent! Mashiach ben Yossef will not have to appear before Mashiach ben David, nor will the activities attributed to him or his death have to occur. All depends on the spiritual condition of the Jewish people at the time the redemption is to take place: The essential function of Mashiach ben Yossef is to prepare Israel for the final redemption, to put them into the proper condition in order to clear the way for Mashiach ben David to come. Of that ultimate redemption it is said, that if Israel repent (return to G‑d) they shall be redeemed immediately (even before the predetermined date for Mashiach's coming). If they will not repent and thus become dependent on the final date, "the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a ruler over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, thus causing Israel to repent, and thereby bringing them back to the right path." In other words, if Israel shall return to G‑d on their own and make themselves worthy of the redemption, there is no need for the trials and tribulations associated with the above account of events related to Mashiach ben Yossef. Mashiach ben David will come directly and redeem us.

​

The prophecies about the Messiah that have been attributed to Messiah ben Joseph are about the first coming of the Messiah.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies about the Messiah dying, but did not fulfill the prophecies about the full restoration of the children attributed to Messiah ben David.
When Jesus came as the Messiah, the children of Israel did not repent, and because of this they were thrust back into a cruel exile by the Romans in 70 CE instead of being rescued from the Roman armies at that time.

Here is part of the Messianic prophecies mentioned in the video.

Isaiah 11:10-11 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.​

One of the arguments in the video is that there are no prophecies that say the Messiah will be YHWH (Yahweh God), so claims that Jesus is God show that Jesus is not the Messiah.
Another of the arguments in the video is that Jesus cannot be the Messiah because the prophecies say the Messiah will gather the exiles and Jesus did not gather the exiles.
When we examine the prophecy we find that it says that it is YHWH (Yahweh God) who will gather the exiles.
If the Messiah will gather the exiles, then the Messiah must be YHWH to fulfill the prophecy, which destroys one of the first arguments found in the video.
If the Messiah is not YHWH, then the Messiah is not the one that is supposed to gather the exiles, which destroys another of the arguments found in the video.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Jesus will actually never be an earthly king as he hands the kingdom over to God the father before we take possession of the new earth, and after the last day (resurrection day). So if that's what the Jews are waiting for they're going to miss the boat.

At the seventh trump of Revelation, the kingdoms of the earth are given to Jesus (Revelation 11:15).
Jesus does not give the kingdom over to God the Father until after the battle at the end of the 1,000 year Messianic era (Revelation 20:7-9).
In between those events, Jesus will be the king of the Earth.

The thousand years is a symbolic term relating to an unspecified period of time.

Then Jesus will be the king of the Earth for an unspecified period of time between Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 20:7-9.

Don't you know that Jesus currently reigns? He said all power and authority was given to him in heaven and on earth. (Matthew 28:18) No one can have all power and authority and not be king. Therefore we know that the thousand years is now.

Jesus has not received the kingdom yet.
Jesus will return after he receives the kingdom at the sounding of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.

Luke 19:12 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.​

Therefore we know that the thousand years have not started yet.

 

[genuineoriginal]

o.k. So if it doesn't have to be the exact same throne, then what makes it "the throne of David"?

The Hebrew word for throne is כִּסֵּא kicce' which comes from כָּסָה kacah which means something covered.
The "throne" of David is everything covered by the authority and power of David as king, and includes the entire land of Israel and all the children of Israel.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The NIV is an absolute and utter piece of garbage.

Do you consider the KJV an equally absolutely and utter piece of garbage?

Neither the NIV nor the KJV is a piece of garbage because both are the Word of God translated into English according to the best efforts of godly men.

 

[Freedm]

At the seventh trump of Revelation, the kingdoms of the earth are given to Jesus (Revelation 11:15).
Jesus does not give the kingdom over to God the Father until after the battle at the end of the 1,000 year Messianic era (Revelation 20:7-9).

I used to think so too, until I realized... I was wrong. The fact is, the 7th trumpet is blown after the thousand years and I can prove it.

When the seventh trumpet blows, Revelation tells us three things.

1. The kingdom of God begins and he will reign forever and ever.
2. God’s wrath has come.
3. Time for the judging of the dead.

All three of these prove that the trumpet is blown after the thousand years, not before.

1. God's eternal reign can not begin until after Satan is permanently destroyed. That happens after the thousand years.

2. God's wrath happens after the last day resurrection (Rev 14:14-19), which happens at the end of the thousand years.

3. The judging of the dead also happens at the end of the thousand years.

 

[Freedm]

Then Jesus will be the king of the Earth for an unspecified period of time between Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 20:7-9.

Notice that the reference to the thousand year reign does not say anything about earth.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I used to think so too, until I realized... I was wrong. The fact is, the 7th trumpet is blown after the thousand years and I can prove it.

It would be impossible for you to prove that the seventh trumpet is blown after the thousand years, since it is blown before the wrath of God that precedes the thousand years.

When the seventh trumpet blows, Revelation tells us three things.

1. The kingdom of God begins and he will reign forever and ever.
2. God’s wrath has come.
3. Time for the judging of the dead.

All three of these prove that the trumpet is blown after the thousand years, not before.

You are missing some things.

1. God's eternal reign can not begin until after Satan is permanently destroyed. That happens after the thousand years.

Jesus reigns for a thousand years during the time Satan is bound in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 20:1-3 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.​

2. God's wrath happens after the last day resurrection (Rev 14:14-19), which happens at the end of the thousand years.

God's wrath happens during the seven bowls which take place after the seven trumpets.(Revelation 16)
By the end of God's wrath, the armies of the nations have gathered at Armageddon to be destroyed, which marks the beginning of the thousand years.

3. The judging of the dead also happens at the end of the thousand years.

There are two resurrections.
The first resurrection happens at the beginning of the thousand years (Revelation 20:4-5) and the second happens at the end of the thousand years (Revelation 20:12-13)

 

[genuineoriginal]

Notice that the reference to the thousand year reign does not say anything about earth.

You missed it?
Let me highlight it for you.

Revelation 20:7-9 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

 

[Right Divider]

I guess neither do facts.

I've been showing you the facts. You don't like them.

 

[Right Divider]

You mean like I did in post 38?

I stopped reading that post right after "NIV translation". As I mentioned, that "translation" is an abomination.

No, Hebrews is definitely not wrong, but the KJV translation is rather misleading. It can easily be misunderstood to be referring to Jesus as "he", but in fact "he" refers to man in general, as in mankind. The NIV makes this a lot more obvious by using the word "them" instead of "he".

Look at the NIV translation.

Hebrews 2
It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little [a] lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”[c]

The NIV is complete and utter CRAP.

1. It's NOT "a son of man", it's THE son of man!
2. It's NOT not THEM, it's HIM!

It you're going to force your doctrine to rely on garbage (NIV), you'll end up with garbage for doctrine.

If you want to go translation hopping, look around. Other translations, like the NASB (which is based on the same manuscripts as the NIV) has this:

5 For He did not subject to angels [g]the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. 6 But one has testified somewhere, saying,
“What is man, that You remember him?
Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?

7 “You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;

8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

​

 

[Freedm]

You missed it?
Let me highlight it for you.

Revelation 20:7-9 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

It still doesn't say Jesus will reign on the earth during the thousand years.

 

[Freedm]

It would be impossible for you to prove that the seventh trumpet is blown after the thousand years, since it is blown before the wrath of God that precedes the thousand years.

First of all, you can't disprove what I showed you by simply claiming that the wrath of God precedes the thousand years, unless you've first proven that the wrath of God precedes a thousand years. And even then you would have to reconcile the scripture I showed you to explain how the seventh trumpet does not coincide with the judging of the dead or God's eternal reign, as it states. Good luck.

You are missing some things.

Jesus reigns for a thousand years during the time Satan is bound in the bottomless pit.

I said God's eternal reign can not begin until after Satan is permanently destroyed. Notice the word "eternal". The thousand years is not eternal. I'm talking about God's reign on the new earth. That can not begin until after Satan is destroyed. Do you deny that?

There are two resurrections.
The first resurrection happens at the beginning of the thousand years (Revelation 20:4-5) and the second happens at the end of the thousand years (Revelation 20:12-13)

So what? Do you deny that the judging of the dead happens at the end of the thousand years?
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