Have I gone MAD???

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Cherry-picker... pick your cherries and ignore the rest. Stop lying Jerry, it's very unbecoming a Christian.

I didn't ignore what you said in order to try to prove that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from the works of the law. Here is what you said and my response:

Jesus said "Keep My commandments." That means keeping the law was a requirement.

Here is what Paul said about trying to establish one's own righteousnness by keeping the law:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident" (Gal.3:10-11).​

If law keeping was a requirement for those under the law then none of them would be saved because "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident."

Here is how David, who lived under the law, was saved:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:6-7).​

According to your ideas David could not be saved without works but Paul declares in no uncertain terms that God imputed righteousness to him without works.

I could have accused you of "cherry picking" but I do will not use that tactic because it proves nothing. I didn't ignore what you said and you know that I didn't but yet you accuse me of ignoring your points anyway and lying. You never answered my response.

Now that I have answered your point about keeping the commandments it is time for you to actually address what the Lord Jesus said in the following verse where He spoke to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​
 

Idolater

Well-known member
Anti-Biblical horrible no good doctrine!
Not really. I know you MADs reject the Our Father /Lord's Prayer, but one of its petitions is "as we forgive those who trespass against us". We have no power to forgive the eternal penalties for the sins of others, but we do have the power to forgive them the penalties and punishments in this world that their sins earn them, sins against us---"Seventy times seven" comes to mind---and it points to the preceding petition, "Forgive us our trespasses", which must mean to forgive us the penalties and punishments in this world that our sins have earned us, since there is no way that we can forgive those who trespass against us as Our Father forgives us the eternal consequences of our sins. That is, in the Our Father we basically ask Him for indulgence, and we promise to grant indulgence to others also.
 

Idolater

Well-known member
Indulgences are greed and pride, etc. etc. etc.

It's disgusting that you believe that "paying off the RCC" will "reduce your penalty" for your sin. Just disgusting.
:freak: None of that is even close to true, but we're off topic enough, so forget it. Nevermind.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
As an honest person, I can no longer "dialog" with a liar and a cherry-picker. You're no better the GT or a JW.

Why don't you finally address the Lord Jesus' following words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law?:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

You must be a JW because they too deny what He said there.

Run and hide and call me a liar but His words will not go away.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Right Divider,

I asked you:

What determined which Jewish believer was in the Body and the other not?

To this question you answered by saying the following:

The dispensation under which they are saved.

You obviously know nothing about Apollos, who was saved prior to the present dispensation. At one time Apollos was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John":

"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).​


Certainly Apollos was saved because he was fervent in the spirit and he believed what John the Baptist revealed in his baptism:

"And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water...And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God" (Jn.1:31,34).​


Apollos was born of God when he believed that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God:

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.4-5).​


After Apollos was saved and after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​


Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one."

Right Divider, according to your ideas Apollos could not have been in the Body of Christ because he was saved in a prior dispensation.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one."
Oh the assumptions that you make Jerry.... but, of course, they must be true.... because how could Jerry be wrong about anything?

Is it not possible for Apollos to be saved in the previous dispensation and YET still help Paul?

Begging the question is one of your favorite games.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Oh the assumptions that you make Jerry.... but, of course, they must be true.... because how could Jerry be wrong about anything?

Is it not possible for Apollos to be saved in the previous dispensation and YET still help Paul?

Begging the question is one of your favorite games.

I just cannot trick my mind, like you can, into believing that even though Apollos was watering what Paul had planted and they were both ONE Apollos was not one with Paul in the Body of Christ:

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Of course nothing you say surprises me since you assert that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved without keeping the commandments DESPITE what the Lord Jesus told these Jews here:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

You continue to run and hide from those words which the Savior said to the Jews who lived under the law. Why do you claim to be a believer since you deny His words?

Run, run, run, but you cannot hide from the Savior who is the judge of the living and the dead.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I just cannot trick my mind, like you can, into believing that even though Apollos was watering what Paul had planted and they were both ONE Apollos was not one with Paul in the Body of Christ:

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Of course nothing you say surprises me since you assert that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved without keeping the commandments DESPITE what the Lord Jesus told these Jews here:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

You continue to run and hide from those words which the Savior said to the Jews who lived under the law. Why do you claim to be a believer since you deny His words?

Run, run, run, but you cannot hide from the Savior who is the judge of the living and the dead.

I run from nothing Jerry. I have honest dialog, unlike your lying about me.

You love to take ONE verse (cherry-picked) in isolation... here and there ... in the scripture.

You love to read your assumptions INTO the scripture.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You love to take ONE verse (cherry-picked) in isolation... here and there ... in the scripture.

You love to read your assumptions INTO the scripture.

You run and hide from the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Tell me, big talker, what is it that I ASSUME about His words there?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
All I have time for currently. Will try to provide a more substantive response tomorrow or Monday morning.

Intro to Dispensationalism

On the videotape at about 34 minutes Bob Enyart says that in the first three chapters of the book of Acts the Apostles were preaching the same thing John the Baptist was preaching--that they should repent--which means keep the law.

Yes, they were preaching that they should keep the law but John the Baptist was preaching that Jesus is the Son of God (Jn.1:34) and the promised Christ, the Messiah. And those who believed that gospel were "born of God" the moment they believed that truth:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).

The Jews who lived under the law were born of God and saved the moment that they believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Sin of God. Therefore, the work of keeping the commandments played absolutely no role in their salvation.​
 

Right Divider

Body part
You run and hide from the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Tell me, big talker, what is it that I ASSUME about His words there?
You ASSUME that this is the only verse on the topic in the entire Bible.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You ASSUME that this is the only verse on the topic in the entire Bible.

You know that isn't true because I addressed the verse you quoted to try to prove that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from keeping the commandments. You continue to run and hide from the following words spoken by the Lord Jesus to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (Jn.11:25-26).​


In this last passage, the Savior asks, "Believeth thou this?"

Your answer is " no, I do not believe you."

Here is the reason why you refuse to believe the Lord Jesus:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​
 

Right Divider

Body part
You know that isn't true because I addressed the verse you quoted to try to prove that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from keeping the commandments. You continue to run and hide from the following words spoken by the Lord Jesus to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (Jn.11:25-26).​

In this last passage, the Savior asks, "Believeth thou this?"

Your answer is " no, I do not believe you."

Here is the reason why you refuse to believe the Lord Jesus:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​

Lying about me again.... thanks "brother".
 
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