Have I gone MAD???

[Jerry Shugart]

Is it the contention of some Mid Acts, then that the BoC and Jews are separate groups completely?

Both groups acknowledge that there are Jews in the Body of Christ. One group asserts that only some believing Jews are in the Body and others are not (such as Peter and John). Another group teaches that all the Jews who believed in the Lord Jesus are in the Body of Christ.

I have never heard a good reason why some Mid Acts people believe that some of the Jews who believed in the Lord Jesus are in the Body and others are not. Perhaps Right Divider can explain why some were in the Body and others not.

That they are often in the same church, but one is signified differently? and/or that there is their books are available, but not addressed to every believer?

As I'm looking how it is all 'separate' I will appreciate, how it it is all 'put back together' and 'if' it is all put back together. Thanks. -Lon

Perhaps Right Divider can clarify that for you. I believe that all of the Jews who believed in the Lord Jesus are in the Body where there is no distinction between the Israelites and those of other nationalities (Gal.3:28).

 

[Right Divider]

I think mostly that what people read there is that Paul was basically a murderer, but he was shown mercy, the first very grave sinner, the first murderer, to obtain mercy, it was this pattern that Paul was talking about here, and not that he was the first individual member of the Body of Christ. He was forgiven or absolved of his murder by Christ, it sets the edge for who in the future will be permitted, allowed, welcomed, invited into the Body. There is no limit to who you are or to what you've done, the Lord's mercy is available to you. Paul was a pattern.

So King David was not a murderer that was shown mercy?

King David should have received the death penalty according to God's law.

Back to the drawing board for you.

 

[Right Divider]

Perhaps Right Divider can clarify that for you. I believe that all of the Jews who believed in the Lord Jesus are in the Body where there is no distinction between the Israelites and those of other nationalities (Gal.3:28).

That's because you read your theory into the scripture.

 

[Right Divider]

The verses say nothing about the Body of Christ, much less that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ. Paul was the "pattern" in regard to the LORD's longsuffering for those who should follow.

Surely you have more than this, don't you?

Here C. Stam is talking about 1 Tim 1:14:16

It is difficult to understand how anyone can read this portion of Scripture without seeing that God began a new dispensation with the conversion of Saul.

Stam, Cornelius. Things That Differ (Kindle Locations 2055-2056). Berean Bible Society. Kindle Edition.

Are you, once again, going to disagree with "one of the giants of MAD"?

 

[Right Divider]

Jerry Shugart

Another reason why we find Paul proclaiming that Jesus is the Christ, the Son
of God, here is that the book of Acts is essentially the story of Israel's fall, not the
story of the birth and growth of the Church of this age. The opening question of
the book is: "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
(Acts 1:6). The answer at the close is: "The salvation of God is sent unto the
Gentiles" (Acts 28:28). The Body of Christ did have its beginning with Paul during
the period covered by the latter part of Acts, but the main purpose of the book is
to show how Israel rejected Christ in spite of the miraculous demonstrations of
Pentecost, in spite of the powerful appeals of the twelve and even in spite of the
testimony of Paul, who once had been Christ's greatest enemy on earth.

C. R. Stam, Acts Dispensationally Considered, Volume Two, Page 30

The Body of Christ had its historical beginning with Paul, before he wrote his
first epistle.

C. R. Stam, Acts Dispensationally Considered, Volume Two, Page 103

We believe that Paul's conversion and call to apostleship marks the
beginning of the new dispensation and of the Body of Christ.

C. R. Stam, Acts Dispensationally Considered, Volume Two, Page 105

Do you disagree with this "giant of MAD"?

 

[Lon]

In Christ Before Paul

By Justin Johnson
Skeptics of the special revelation given to Paul are quick to point out that there were people “in Christ” before Paul.

“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” – Romans 16:7
Out of the 78 times in the Bible the phrase “in Christ” shows up, Paul uses the phrase 75 times. It is clear that the phrase is distinctively Pauline.

Afterall, to Paul was revealed the mystery of God’s will that…

“in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:” – Ephesians 1:10

The all things in Christ consist of the prophesied earthly things, but also the heavenly things revealed as the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began.

It is evident that God’s purpose has always been for all things to be in Christ.

So, when Paul describes Junia and Andronicus as being “in Christ before me”, this is seen as an admission that those before Paul taught the same thing as him. Yet, this would be an hasty conclusion since merely being in Christ is not the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25). Both the prophets and the Lord in his ministry to Israel talked about being in him.



That salvation was found in the Lord, and subsequently in the Lord Jesus Christ was no mystery.

A lot of Jews today still have truth hidden from them, such that this is a mystery, but I acquiesce Mid Acts: It doesn't appear to be Paul's mystery since he insists it was hidden until he revealed it. My understanding, at this point, and I want it to be totally in line with Biblical revelation, is that the mystery is salvation by grace alone as well as the extent of everything the Lord Jesus Christ did on the Cross for salvation.

For the rest read Grace Ambassadors here

 

[Lon]

Again, thank you. I do realize some of this takes time and work (which I'm also putting in), so 1) I know and appreciate it and 2) believe the thread will answer important questions for the effort, at least for me, but I'd suspect others as well. I would hope it has a good archival quality to it. -Lon

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's because you read your theory into the scripture.

Don't be shy, Right Divider. Tell us what determined whether a Jew who believed in Jesus Christ was baptized into the Body of Christ?

In other words, why were some of those Jewish believers baptized into the Body of Christ and others not?

Your idea that the Twelve were not in the Body of Christ demands an answer.

Why?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For the rest read Grace Ambassadors here

I think you will find that site teaches that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.

 

[JudgeRightly]

All I have time for currently. Will try to provide a more substantive response tomorrow or Monday morning.

Intro to Dispensationalism

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All I have time for currently. Will try to provide a more substantive response tomorrow or Monday morning.

Intro to Dispensationalism

On the video (at about 33 minutes) Bob Enyart says that "in prophecy Israel does not present salvation by grace through faith alone."

The question that needs to be asked is, "Were the Israelites who lived under the law saved in any way other than by grace through faith alone?"

The Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

It is a fact that those who received John's first epistle had already received eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

The Apostle Peter said the following in regard to how he was saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

Only those who wrongly divide the Bible come to the conclusion that the Jews who lived under the law were not saved by grace through faith alone.

Does this matter? Yes, it matters a lot because today those who wrongly divide the Bible teach that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is not for the Body of Christ and thus they rob those who believe them of eight books of the Bible.That is no small matter!

 

[JudgeRightly]

In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

All in the over-arching "Kingdom of God" "call upon the name of Jesus Christ.

That does NOT preclude there being two groups of people, one saved by grace through faith, and another saved by faith AND works.

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."

Agreed. And?

That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew,

Which is referring to what one WAS PRIOR to becoming a Christian, not what one IS CURRENTLY.

who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious

This is called an appeal to divinity fallacy.

that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13

This is question begging.

You're assuming that Paul was including the Twelve (and by extension the Remnant) in this verse.

But you missed what he said at the beginning of the verse!

"For as THE BODY...."!!!

He's talking about the Body of Christ! NOWHERE in the Bible is Israel referred to as a "body," or even part of a body.

"The BODY OF CHRIST is one", NOT "all believers are one."

Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ.

Except, again, that's not what the verse says AT ALL. Paul said WEare baptized into the Body of Christ.

Who is "WE"?

Christians! CHRISTIANS are baptized into the Body of Christ by one Spirit!

Not Israel!

That can only mean that the Twelve were in the Body of Christ and many of the Hebrew epistles were written by Peter and by John.

Except it doesn't mean OR SAY that, you're just reading that INTO the text. Eisegesis, not exegesis.

Then most of today's MADs are ignorant of what Paul said here:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).

The phrase " in Christ" refers to being in the Body of Christ:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).

No, Jerry, it doesn't. That's just you question begging.

The phrase "in Christ" refers to believers in God.

Christians are "in Christ" just as much as the remnant was "in Christ," and yet they were still two different groups.

Once again you just IGNORE the evidence that contradict your ideas.

Look in a mirror, Jerry.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So the following verse does not indicate that being in the Body is synonymous with being "in Christ"?

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).

No, Jerry, the verse does not indicate that.

Again, "we" here is talking about CHRISTIANS!

WE, Christians, being many (members), are one body in Christ.

Would you agree that the Body of Christ is "in Christ"?

Yes?

Why then, does that preclude there being another group OUTSIDE of the Body of Christ that is ALSO "in Christ"?

Fact is, it doesn't.

You are a MAD who runs and hides from the following Scriptures which contradict your teaching:

In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

Addressed already.

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord." That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ. That can only mean that the Twelve were in the Body of Christ and many of the Hebrew epistles were written by Peter and by John.

Addressed already. See my previous post.

According to you neither Peter nor Paul "called upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."

Bearing false witness is a sin, Jerry.

Of course we believe that they did.

What we disagree with is your claim that they were in the Body of Christ.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The WE refers to those to whom Paul addressed his epistle:
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).


The WE refers to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."

. . .
"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

No, Jerry, it doesn't.

Chapter 12 verse 13 does not specifically refer to Chapter 1 verse 2.

Talk about ripping things out of context...

You must not think that either John and Peter called on the name of the Lord Jesus because you don't think that the word "we" in the following verse applies to either John or Peter:

Of course we do. What we DON'T do is rip verses out of their specific context to support our beliefs, as you are attempting to do.

HERE is the relevant context of Chapter 12, verse 13:

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.For in fact the body is not one member but many.If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.And if they were all one member, where would the body be?But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. - 1 Corinthians 12:1-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians12:1-31&version=NKJV

Paul is specifically talking about the members of the Body of Christ. It DOES NOT FOLLOW that he is also therefore including Israel (which is never referred to as a body or as members of a body or as body parts) in the Body.

Please tell me all the ways that you think that a person can be "in Christ."

As a member of the Body of Christ, or as part of believing Israel in the Remnant, which died out (most likely) with John the Apostle.

 

[JudgeRightly]

My efforts to convince these MAD folks that they are wrong have failed. . .

Have you ever considered the possibility that the reason you have failed to convince us "MAD folks" that we're wrong is because we AREN'T wrong, but YOU are?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Were there any churches with gentiles and Jews in the same congregation? Were only part of those 'in the body of Christ?'

Let me put it this way:

Those who placed their faith in Christ PRIOR to Paul's conversion were saved by faith plus works, as works were still required ("Keep My commandments" and "Teach them all the things I have taught you" - Jesus)

Those who placed their faith in Christ POST Paul's conversion were saved by faith alone, regardless of which camp they became a part of, either Paul's ministry or the ministry of the Twelve, and would be considered members of the Body of Christ.

Those we were saved prior were partakers of the New Covenant for Israel. Those after were partakers of the "covenant" of grace. So yes, there likely were churches, especially after Paul's conversion, where some were Jews, and others were Christians.

 

[Lon]

Let me put it this way:

Those who placed their faith in Christ PRIOR to Paul's conversion were saved by faith plus works, as works were still required ("Keep My commandments" and "Teach them all the things I have taught you" - Jesus)

Those who placed their faith in Christ POST Paul's conversion were saved by faith alone, regardless of which camp they became a part of, either Paul's ministry or the ministry of the Twelve, and would be considered members of the Body of Christ.

Those we were saved prior were partakers of the New Covenant for Israel. Those after were partakers of the "covenant" of grace. So yes, there likely were churches, especially after Paul's conversion, where some were Jews, and others were Christians.

It'd seem that one in Mid Acts might believe an epistle 'could' be read by either Jew or Greek, but certainly needing to be careful in reading wrongly into/from another's instruction.

Thank you.

 

[JudgeRightly]

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (1 Tim.1:15-16).

This passage says nothing about the Body of Christ. ZERO!

Paul is saying that since he was the chief sinner then he is a "pattern" to show forth the LORD's "longsuffering."

In other words, if Paul can be saved then anyone can be saved since he was the chief sinner.

If that's the case, then Paul was hardly the first...

But Paul said "in me first," and since your position doesn't allow for Paul to be the first, you are essentially calling Paul a liar.

Paul said "in me first Christ might show all longsuffering," why? "As a pattern" to whom? "to THOSE WHO U]ARE GOING TO BELIEVE[/U] ON HIM FOR EVERLASTING LIFE."

Did you catch that?

FUTURE tense, not past. As RD said earlier, it's not retroactive, Jerry, Paul is the first! He's the pattern for all who believe AFTER him! He's not following a pattern of those who came before him...

 

[JudgeRightly]

In other words, why were some of those Jewish believers baptized into the Body of Christ and others not?

Because God put Israel's covenant on hold, temporarily cutting off unbelieving Israel because of their unbelief. That happened when Paul was converted.

 

[JudgeRightly]

On the video (at about 33 minutes) Bob Enyart says that "in prophecy Israel does not present salvation by grace through faith alone."

The question that needs to be asked is, "Were the Israelites who lived under the law saved in any way other than by grace through faith alone?"

The answer is yes, Jerry.

The Old Covenant God had with Israel was primarily of works, but was undergirded by grace (It wouldn't have worked otherwise).

It's why God could show mercy to those who broke God's law and who were truly repentant, such as David, even though His law said they were deserving of a far greater punishment.

The Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

The Lord Jesus also said "Keep My commandments."

The Lord Jesus also said "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

And in the verse immediately following that one, He said this:

[JESUS]Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.[/JESUS] - Matthew 5:19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew5:19&version=NKJV

It is a fact that those who received John's first epistle had already received eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Yes, because you may be aware that 1 John was written AFTER Paul's conversion, and certainly after Paul was able to explain his theology to the Twelve... of whom John is the author of 1 John... and 2 John and 3 John...

The Apostle Peter said the following in regard to how he was saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

Why does that preclude that he (and the other of the Twelve) had to keep the law?

Only those who wrongly divide the Bible come to the conclusion that the Jews who lived under the law were not saved by grace through faith alone.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Jerry.

Does this matter? Yes, it matters a lot because today those who wrongly divide the Bible teach that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is not for the Body of Christ and thus they rob those who believe them of eight books of the Bible.That is no small matter!

"... Today those who wrongly divide the Bible teach that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew Epistles is for the Body of Christ and thus they read the mail addressed to a specific group and think it was written to them. That is no small matter!"

:think: