Grandstand discussion: "Ghost's Views on The Nature of Christ"

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Guyver

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Let me ask this question to whomever is listening or interested. What do you think your faith is?

Do you have a relationship with God or not?

If you have a relationship with God, what does that mean?

Is it any different with anyone else with whom you have a relationship? Bad question. Of course it is. Yet it is the same in many ways.

Think of someone you love. Can you imagine deeply offending someone you love and not attempting to mend that relationship, especially if the offense was your fault? I mean, even if you accidentally spill a cup of coffee on a stranger, you would bend over backwards apologizing and attempting to clean up the mess, wouldn't you?

How would your relationship with God be any different than that? If you harm or offend anyone, you owe an apology. If you harm or offend God through your actions, especially if your actions have offended one of his children.....you have some repenting to do. That's a bottom line. Honestly, I don't see how that would be confusing. It may or may not be a salvation issue...that's debatable.

Even if it's not a salvation issue, you think you can willfully sin before God and not offend Him? That's almost insane to even think IMO.

Make no mistake. God is holy and he doesn't dig sin, Christian or no.
 

graceandpeace

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First of all, God bless you and thanks for responding. My computer is messed up again and I can't post right.

Yes, I think the idea of repenting once for sins is unbiblical and heretical.

No, I do not believe that the Lords prayer is a prayer of salvation for unbelievers.

No, I do not believe that 1 John is written to unbelievers and is a prayer of salvation. I believe it is written to believers. I think the Apostle John knows the difference between children of God and unbelievers. John wrote to his little children. Specifically, he wrote to his dear children. If the people to whom he wrote were not Christians, I don't see why he would call them his dear children.

God bless you and regards.


I will not argue. Have a good day...and, God bless you, too.
 

graceandpeace

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Guyver:

Let me ask this question to whomever is listening or interested. What do you think your faith is?

Do you have a relationship with God or not?

Faith is believing and having hope anyway in what you cannot see. A true relationship with God is based on understanding His love and grace for us...in a 'sonship', or 'daughtership' way. A true son/daughter does not have to ask over and over for her Father to forgive, what He has taken care of..once 'they' believe it has been done. Having remorse for doing wrong, is different than having to ask God to make it right again. There is an attititude of 'remorse' that is always ongoing in a christians life...this is called 'humility'. It does not require that you throw up in God's face what He has removed; however, and this is the difference, in mho. He already knows your heart.

If you have a relationship with God, what does that mean?

Is it any different with anyone else with whom you have a relationship? Bad question. Of course it is. Yet it is the same in many ways.

No, it is not the same. No human relationship can take the place or be the same as that which we have with Christ.

Humans let us down; always...no matter whom they are. Even our own spouses...will let us down from time to time. Jesus can never fit into that mold, and He wants us to know the difference. He wants us to have the peace that surpasses all understanding, and you simply cannot have that peace unless you understand that He has taken care of your sins....fully and completely. Understanding this however, is not a salvational issue, because we grow in His grace....this takes time..just as it takes time to also understand how deeply He loves each and everyone of us. He does not love as we humanly love...His is far greater, and we all know this; but sometimes we seem to have a hard time accepting it.


Think of someone you love. Can you imagine deeply offending someone you love and not attempting to mend that relationship, especially if the offense was your fault?

I happen to believe it offends God, whom has said it is "DONE", to bring it up to His face over and over....look at it this way. Take your spouse...for even though it cannot be compared, it is the closest thing...

let's say you have been married for 20 years, and during the first year of your marriage you did something awful that you still regret doing. If your wife forgave you 20 years ago...does she still want you to keep bringing it up, as if it has not been forgotten?..well, that is how Jesus is...He said, ALL our sins are FORGOTTEN..not just removed; not just made white; FORGOTTEN:


Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

He wants our conscience to be clean...no guilt, simply because He wants us to grow to a point where our faith is complete. By that; I mean; it has been perfected by love and it is a process....that is why those whom claim 'babes' whom do not yet understand this and call them unsaved are in huge error. We are not supposed to judge any of God's servants...but, anyways..not getting off topic, our conscience HAS been cleansed; but faith must grow to understand what it means:

1 Tim 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.


2Ti 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from [my] forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;


Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

The law made nothing perfect; only bringing in of a better hope did..which is what was accomplished by Jesus Christ. That is why nothing outside of HIM is holy; sanctified; or saved.


Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Do you see it?

We are to no longer be conscience of our sins....it takes FAITH; and faith perfected by love/grace will lead you to see this over time.


(that too is written)

Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We have been washed; we are CLEAN.











I mean, even if you accidentally spill a cup of coffee on a stranger, you would bend over backwards apologizing and attempting to clean up the mess, wouldn't you?

is spilling coffee sin, that needs to be repented of?

How would your relationship with God be any different than that? If you harm or offend anyone, you owe an apology. If you harm or offend God through your actions, especially if your actions have offended one of his children.....you have some repenting to do. That's a bottom line. Honestly, I don't see how that would be confusing. It may or may not be a salvation issue...that's debatable.

He said to confess our sins one to another...I will stick with that..He doesnt see my sin. I walk by faith.

Even if it's not a salvation issue, you think you can willfully sin before God and not offend Him? That's almost insane to even think IMO.

No; I dont believe any christian can willfully sin.

Make no mistake. God is holy and he doesn't dig sin, Christian or no.

But, He does forgive and remove it.
 
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Guyver

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let's say you have been married for 20 years, and during the first year of your marriage you did something awful that you still regret doing. If your wife forgave you 20 years ago...does she still want you to keep bringing it up, as if it has not been forgotten?..well, that is how Jesus is...He said, ALL our sins are FORGOTTEN..not just removed; not just made white; FORGOTTEN:

Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

The law made nothing perfect; only bringing in of a better hope did..which is what was accomplished by Jesus Christ. That is why nothing outside of HIM is holy; sanctified; or saved.


Excellent Grace and Peace.

Now how about those sins you commit after being saved?

You know, like in your analogy.....let's say twenty years after marriage a woman sleeps with someone else. Does she need to repent?

Does she need to ask God for forgiveness?

Does she ask her husband for forgiveness?
 

Town Heretic

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Excellent Grace and Peace.

Now how about those sins you commit after being saved?

You know, like in your analogy.....let's say twenty years after marriage a woman sleeps with someone else. Does she need to repent?

Does she need to ask God for forgiveness?

Does she ask her husband for forgiveness?
I'd say no. That the point of repentance in terms of her salvation is accomplished and the rest isn't found, again, in a mantra but in an intent and that intent follows anyone who has received grace. I can't love and not grieve when I offend the object of my adoration. I can't love and not desire a different methodology.

Now that's real repentance. :e4e:
 

graceandpeace

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Excellent Grace and Peace.

Now how about those sins you commit after being saved?

You know, like in your analogy.....let's say twenty years after marriage a woman sleeps with someone else. Does she need to repent?

Does she need to ask God for forgiveness?

Does she ask her husband for forgiveness?


A woman that would sleep with someone else does not love her husband. A christian that would sleep with the enemy does not love Christ...I cannot see that analogy working..here.

Let's choose one that would make sense...let's say a woman after 20 years hurts her husbands feelings, about not liking his new shirt...does the woman need to repent? No..a make up kiss will do.

What I am trying to say is that christians do not WANT to sin..period.

Those whom do; have never repented to begin with.
 

godrulz

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What I am trying to say is that christians do not WANT to sin..period.

Those whom do; have never repented to begin with.

Have you not read I Corinthians?

Some Christians do sin (I Jn.; Rev. 2-3). How do you explain a pastor having an affair?

What is true at time x may not be true at time y. Using your logic, a person who divorces or grows to hate a spouse never was married and never loved them to begin with? I find your position untenable and believe it is based on wrong assumptions/conclusions.
 

Guyver

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A woman that would sleep with someone else does not love her husband. A christian that would sleep with the enemy does not love Christ...I cannot see that analogy working..here.

Let's choose one that would make sense...let's say a woman after 20 years hurts her husbands feelings, about not liking his new shirt...does the woman need to repent? No..a make up kiss will do.

What I am trying to say is that christians do not WANT to sin..period.

Those whom do; have never repented to begin with.


Whoa! Now you're opening up a can of worms there my sister. First of all, saying something that a kiss can fix is not the same thing as what I said. Big difference.

Now you're saying that someone who willfully sins a "big" sin and thinks they're saved, is not really saved in the first place? What if they have been "saved" for twenty years? Believed and baptized, a Pastor in a church, had communion, and they do a big sin? Are they still saved? Do they need repentance again?

Are there degrees of sin? is breaking one of the ten commandments the same thing as lying, or not loving your brother, or being angry with your brother without just cause, or judging another, or speaking evil of a brother, or getting drunk in excess, or not doing good when you know that you should?
 

godrulz

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Repentance is a biblical principle from Genesis to Revelation. Some seem to think it is a dirty word or Pharisaical?
 

Guyver

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Repentance is a biblical principle from Genesis to Revelation. Some seem to think it is a dirty word or Pharisaical?

I know I love the Lord. I know I sin. These are both facts to me.

When my heart is convicted of sin, I go to the Lord and ask forgiveness. I also pray for true repentance, which will give me the heart to make a change in my behavior so that I don't continue in wrongdoing. I think this is entirely scriptural, just as thanking God for all things and worshipping Him are scriptural, right, and proper.

To me, that's what doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly with God is. I think this speaks to relationship, not religious works.
 

godrulz

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Repentance involves mind and will. It is a heart attitude. It is wrong to defend persisting in sin in light of God's holiness and desire to transform us in reality, not just on paper in theory.
 

graceandpeace

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Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
What I am trying to say is that christians do not WANT to sin..period.

Those whom do; have never repented to begin with.


godrulz:

Have you not read I Corinthians?

Of course I have..what verse denies my statement?

Some Christians do sin (I Jn.; Rev. 2-3). How do you explain a pastor having an affair?

Yes...we still sin after true repentance...we still sin, for we are saved sinners...this has nothing to do with how many times we must repent; how many times we must be washed; etc..it is ONCE.

What is true at time x may not be true at time y. Using your logic, a person who divorces or grows to hate a spouse never was married and never loved them to begin with? I find your position untenable and believe it is based on wrong assumptions/conclusions.

A person if a christian would never learn to hate a spouse....we are told to love our enemies...and, it is accomplished by God giving us a heart to do so. How do you explain this:

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

apply that to a spouse...it is the same rule.


1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.


1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


1Jo 2:12 ¶ I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

This is knowledge of what grace teaches....as we grow thereby.

It cannot be denied as THE TRUTH.
 

graceandpeace

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Whoa! Now you're opening up a can of worms there my sister. First of all, saying something that a kiss can fix is not the same thing as what I said. Big difference.

Now you're saying that someone who willfully sins a "big" sin and thinks they're saved, is not really saved in the first place? What if they have been "saved" for twenty years? Believed and baptized, a Pastor in a church, had communion, and they do a big sin? Are they still saved? Do they need repentance again?Are there degrees of sin? is breaking one of the ten commandments the same thing as lying, or not loving your brother, or being angry with your brother without just cause, or judging another, or speaking evil of a brother, or getting drunk in excess, or not doing good when you know that you should?

They need to ask for forgiveness and confess their sins to those whom are involved in the sin....(make it right), they do not have to ask God to forgive them of the sin, for all sin has already been forgiven, upon repentance...(salvation).

I am not saying we should not feel sorry for our sins....we do...what I am saying is that we do not have to 'atone' for it; for it has already been atoned.

ONCE for ALL...we do not have to repent, again and again, to atone for sin.
 

godrulz

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The objective provision for sin is once-for-all (Hebrews). This does not mean the subjective appropriation is not repeated or applied many times as people come to Christ. The right way to deal with sin before and after conversion is to turn from it/cease it (repent) vs persist in it. God expects loving obedience, not rebellious disobedience.

If someone sins, God does not say I died once for it (true) and you only need to turn once from it at conversion (not true if subsequent sins are engaged in). It is not a salvation issue (apart from godless unbelief/apostasy), but a relational one. God does not condone sin in saints because He is holy and it is detrimental to us. The imperatives/exhortations from Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc. support an ongoing aspect of walking in the light/Spirit (which is not automatic).

Your view will force you into a wrong sinless perfection view (Christians cannot sin) or that there is no difference between committing adultery and not doing so, murdering and not murdering, etc.

Once-for-all is always in the context of His one finished work on the cross. It is not applied to whether we repent and obey more than once for specific choices. If I ever commit adultery (have not), then I better repent and renew obedience (biblical) instead of rationalizing or justifying that because He died once it does not matter what I do or do not do. Grace as a license to sin is not biblical. Turning from new isolated sin is not a denial of His once-for-all work. It is not the same as initial turning from false gods to the true God (unbelief to faith). It is turning from one sin that is a new factor to get back on track with our walk with God. To not turn is not presume that grace is a license to sin and that God is no longer holy and winks at sin (contrary to explicit Pauline warnings, imperatives, exhortations to not sin, cease to sin, walk upright in the power of the Spirit).
 

graceandpeace

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Hi godrulz

Your view will force you into a wrong sinless perfection view (Christians cannot sin) or that there is no difference between committing adultery and not doing so, murdering and not murdering, etc.

The bible says this is true of a christian. We cannot sin because He keeps the sin from us....sin is not imputed..you know we have argued this before, and I dont care to do it again....:sigh:it maketh me head hurt...hehe


Once-for-all is always in the context of His one finished work on the cross. It is not applied to whether we repent and obey more than once for specific choices. If I ever commit adultery (have not), then I better repent and renew obedience (biblical) instead of rationalizing or justifying that because He died once it does not matter what I do or do not do. Grace as a license to sin is not biblical.

I agree, grace is not a license to sin; but likewise, grace does not teach us that; as written...so your point is moot. Grace teaches us to obey; and this is why false types of grace that would teach us to have to repent over and over is also moot. Why people cannot seem to grasp that the holy spirit really does lead us and correct us and keep us from wanting to sin is really hard to understand. IF we sin; it is out of weakness of the flesh; it is NEVER out of wanting to....end of story...and, God simply does not impute 'weakness of the flesh' sin to us...for He died to keep that from occurring. GRACE teaches us this..as we come out of the false mindsets of the world's religious modes......:cool:day by day.
 

godrulz

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Obedience vs disobedience is volitional, not passive/automatic. The Spirit influences, not causes/coerces. We are responsible for our choices that may be consistent with or contrary to the Word/Spirit (hence the exhortations/imperatives in Scripture vs mental assent to a theory divorced from reality).

Would you like a Tylenol?:hammer:
 

graceandpeace

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Obedience vs disobedience is volitional, not passive/automatic. The Spirit influences, not causes/coerces. We are responsible for our choices that may be consistent with or contrary to the Word/Spirit (hence the exhortations/imperatives in Scripture vs mental assent to a theory divorced from reality).

Would you like a Tylenol?:hammer:

"obedience"....vs "disobedience"....that is the question. YEP< get me a tylenol.......:chuckle:

I do not hold to perfect obedience; I hold to the obedience of ONE; which is Christ Jesus our Lord.

His grace teaches us to obey........:p
 

godrulz

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"obedience"....vs "disobedience"....that is the question. YEP< get me a tylenol.......:chuckle:

I do not hold to perfect obedience; I hold to the obedience of ONE; which is Christ Jesus our Lord.

His grace teaches us to obey........:p

The bottom line is that we disobey or obey God. He does not do it for us as if we are mere sock puppets. Love and obedience are linked (if you love me, you will obey me).
 

voltaire

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Did she say God makes us be obedient? No. So i take it that whenever you are disobedient , you have temporarily stopped loving God? If not, why mention it in your argument?
 

godrulz

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Did she say God makes us be obedient? No. So i take it that whenever you are disobedient , you have temporarily stopped loving God? If not, why mention it in your argument?

Obed. vs disobed. is active vs passive. We are responsible for our choices. Her view does not compute. We should also distinguish one given choice from our overall state/relationship with God. I am not divorced because I have an argument with my spouse.
 
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