God's ability according to Calvinism
- Thread starter Poly
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About 75% (that's a guess) of the book of Proverbs is about letting God direct your ways and being blessed if you do so. But also about the consequences of NOT letting God direct your ways.
Note how the book is framed....
Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:
2 To know wisdom and instruction, To perceive the words of understanding,
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, Justice, judgment, and equity;
4 To give prudence to the simple, To the young man knowledge and discretion —
5 A wise man will hear and increase learning, And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
6 To understand a proverb and an enigma, The words of the wise and their riddles.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
If you only look at certain Proverbs outside of that context you would think that God directed the fools despising His wisdom and instruction and that would be a massive injustice to God's word.
Note how the book is framed....
Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:
2 To know wisdom and instruction, To perceive the words of understanding,
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, Justice, judgment, and equity;
4 To give prudence to the simple, To the young man knowledge and discretion —
5 A wise man will hear and increase learning, And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
6 To understand a proverb and an enigma, The words of the wise and their riddles.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
If you only look at certain Proverbs outside of that context you would think that God directed the fools despising His wisdom and instruction and that would be a massive injustice to God's word.
I don't know what that means.allsmiles said:
And here we have a real-life example of the book of Proverbs.allsmiles said:
I lean not on my own understanding, but instead lean on God's word. All is good! :up:
You lean on your own understanding.... and therefore you are lost.
Again... God is brilliant.
allsmiles
New member
Knight said:And here we have a real-life example of the book of Proverbs.
I lean not on my own understanding, but instead lean on God's word. All is good! :up:
You lean on your own understanding.... and therefore you are lost.
Again... God is brilliant.
You believe what you want to believe, just like everyone else.
Strike one!allsmiles said:
True!
It is pre-ordained that God works with us!
When we accept Christ's work on the cross God gives us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance. Through the Holy Spirit God works with us, He is our helper, and that is indeed part of God's plan from the beginning.
No... I believe what God ordained me to believe, right???allsmiles said:
allsmiles
New member
Knight said:Strike one!
True!
It is pre-ordained that God works with us!
No, it's written in the bible that God works in us and we are his vessels to fill. We're dead in our trespasses and sins, remember? Can the dead raise itself to life? We love the darkness more than the light, remember? All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, remember?
Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
According to the bible, man can never choose God on his own. There's no working with us.
Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
It's God who raises us, we the dead.
Psalms 115:1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us
but to your name be the glory,
because of your love and faithfulness.
You're giving mankind too much credit Knight, far more than the bible ever does. Is that why you aren't using the bible?
Far greater than a mere helper Knight. I'm surprised that so many folks go around talking about Calvinists as though they were the ones limiting God's power.
Either God governs or he is governed.
:chuckle:
The five points of Calvinism (TULIP)
T - Total Inability = No man can come to Christ unless God predestines him to come to Christ. Yet how then could men resist this calling?
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
U - Unconditional Election = Some men are elected to heaven and some men are elected to Hell. Yet God seems to desire ALL men to come to Christ.
John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
1Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
1Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
L - Limited Atonement = Christ only died for the elect. Yet the Bible indicates that Christ died for all men.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”
Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son,but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
I - Irresistable Grace = God forces some people to be saved. But how can something be "GRACE" if it is forced?
Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,
John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
P - Perseverance of the Saints = God will force the saints to persevere. Does God force the believer to persevere or does He simply preserve our inheritance?
Colossians 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory
Colossians 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.
T - Total Inability = No man can come to Christ unless God predestines him to come to Christ. Yet how then could men resist this calling?
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
U - Unconditional Election = Some men are elected to heaven and some men are elected to Hell. Yet God seems to desire ALL men to come to Christ.
John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
1Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
1Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
L - Limited Atonement = Christ only died for the elect. Yet the Bible indicates that Christ died for all men.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”
Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son,but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
I - Irresistable Grace = God forces some people to be saved. But how can something be "GRACE" if it is forced?
Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,
John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
P - Perseverance of the Saints = God will force the saints to persevere. Does God force the believer to persevere or does He simply preserve our inheritance?
Colossians 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory
Colossians 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.
I post this post every year or so. I found it somewhere on the web a few years ago and added to it and tweaked it over the years just a bit.
Dude... you are all over the board. (focus... focus)allsmiles said:
God says....
Joshua 24:15 “And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Therefore... (concerning being dead in our sin) we cannot save ourselves in that we cannot pay the penalty which is due. But that doesn't mean we can't make the choice to allow God to pay that penalty for us which is what the bible teaches us.
Time to eat! :chew:
VanhoozerRocks
New member
Knight said:
Whoops...hehe. Ya i did set myself up for that one. Could have sworn that you could use flush in that sense like, "flushing" birds out of their hiding and using it to reference Knight's views. Oh well. Anyways, Knight. Was wondering if you could "flesh" out your viewpoint a little more on why the last 2000 years of Christian interaction with the Bible, culture, etc is worthless. Just am really curious about this.
PS. And c'mon boys. If we are going to develop a doctrine. It is best to do it from somewhere other then Proverbs...Tsk Tsk
VanhoozerRocks
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i'm actually just posting this to put this thread up at the top...heheh :rotfl:
Poly
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VanhoozerRocks said:
All scripture can be good for instruction. The problem isn't Proverbs being a bad choice to develop a doctrine, it's having a preconceived idea of God then grabbing isolated verses that, on the surface, seem to support the idea but not when it's read as part of what is actually being communicated in it's entirety.
VanhoozerRocks
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Poly said:
Ah yes. Thank you Poly. All of scripture is good for instruction. I feel I should clarify what I was attempting to say, but seemingly failed to communicate. When it comes to certain books of the Bibles it is necessary to realize the illocutionary acts of the text. In doing this one can attempt to acquire the divine/human communicative action of the text itself. With this in mind, one must always be careful to not force demands upon a text, which a text never intended for itself. With this in mind (again) with Proverbs and especially with the predestination vs. free will debate. I was meaning to make special reference to this doctrine and the book of proverbs. Not that Proverbs is unprofitable for all doctrines, but that it was probably not inteded to be used as a focal point on this debate. But, thank you again Poly.
Soli Deo Gloria
allsmiles
New member
Knight said:
That last post was made in a bit of a hurry, I was being rushed out the door. I was directly addressing the assertion that we take a direct role in our own salvation. I was directly addressing the biblical fact that for ourselves, to choose our own salvation is impossible apart from the work of Christ and God in us, not with us.
Ephesians makes this perfectly clear.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
This does not preclude predestination.
And belief in Christ is predestined.
The ability to make that choice in the first place is predestined.
John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
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