God Owes Us Big Time

Agape4Robin

Member
deardelmar said:
WishI had time to respond in detail right now but I'll try to get to it this PM. I know it is your understanding, that God knows the choices that I make(even before you do)but I don't believe the scriputers you site imply that. It do believe he knows thoose choices as soon as you do.
Perhaps in the sense of the ice cream/ brussel sprouts analogy. But God is not limited to time because we are. Like I said, in God's knowledge, as it pertains to our free will choice, it is neither causative or preventive. In the event I make a bad choice ( and I have), God did not cause that choice nor prevent it, but before I was born put in place His sovereign grace that I could choose to repent and be forgiven.
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Agape4Robin said:
Perhaps in the sense of the ice cream/ brussel sprouts analogy. But God is not limited to time because we are. Like I said, in God's knowledge, as it pertains to our free will choice, it is neither causative or preventive. In the event I make a bad choice ( and I have), God did not cause that choice nor prevent it, but before I was born put in place His sovereign grace that I could choose to repent and be forgiven.

have you ever heard of the contingency incomptability thesis?
 

God_Is_Truth

New member
Agape4Robin said:
I don't think so.....what is it?

it is a combination of the contingency argument and the incompatability argument. for a thorough explanation of it as well as a strong case for the OV, i suggest reading the following paper written by Greg Boyd and two others.

http://www.alanrhoda.net/papers/opentheism.pdf

a quick explanation of the contingency incomptability thesis would be thus:

since we have libertarian free will, each possible choice is a contingency until we make a decision. that is, every thing we could possibly do has a real possibility of being chosen. thus, all choices are contingent. the incomptability part states that real contingency is incomtabile with a closed/settled future (one that God foreknows exhaustively, ie. perfectly and completely, nothing is open) because of a logical contradiction. it states that if all choices are contingent, then each has a % chance of being chosen. however, if God knows what choice will be chosen ahead of time, then the only choice which can be picked is that one, giving it a 100% chance of being picked and giving every other choice a 0% chance. the contradiction would therefore be that the choices have both some % and 0% at the same time. thus, contingency is incompatible with a settled future because it leads to a contradiction.

it's explained more easily in the article in case that doesn't make sense :)
 

Agape4Robin

Member
God_Is_Truth said:
it is a combination of the contingency argument and the incompatability argument. for a thorough explanation of it as well as a strong case for the OV, i suggest reading the following paper written by Greg Boyd and two others.

http://www.alanrhoda.net/papers/opentheism.pdf

a quick explanation of the contingency incomptability thesis would be thus:

since we have libertarian free will, each possible choice is a contingency until we make a decision. that is, every thing we could possibly do has a real possibility of being chosen. thus, all choices are contingent. the incomptability part states that real contingency is incomtabile with a closed/settled future (one that God foreknows exhaustively, ie. perfectly and completely, nothing is open) because of a logical contradiction. it states that if all choices are contingent, then each has a % chance of being chosen. however, if God knows what choice will be chosen ahead of time, then the only choice which can be picked is that one, giving it a 100% chance of being picked and giving every other choice a 0% chance. the contradiction would therefore be that the choices have both some % and 0% at the same time. thus, contingency is incompatible with a settled future because it leads to a contradiction.

it's explained more easily in the article in case that doesn't make sense :)
I wish I could say that I subscribe to one affiliation or another, but the truth is, I am simply a christian who is searching for the truth. My foundation is the bible and Christ. I go to a Baptist church because I like the people there and the pastor is good. I listen to christian talk radio most of the time and I like Pastors such as Greg Laurie, John MacArthur, Adrian Rogers, Kay Arthur, A.W.Tozer, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley and Focus on the Family by Dr. James Dobson. I also like The Way of The Master show with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.

I try to keep an open mind and pray for God's guidance and wisdom. Nothing beats Bible study and TOL is great for interacting with others and sharing ideas. I want to bring honor and glory to God. Simple? Yeah, I'm not a real complex person. God knows my heart and no amount of name calling or condescention will change what I believe to be true through scripture and in my heart. Thank you for the web site, I'll check it out.

God bless! :wave2:
 

Agape4Robin

Member
Lighthouse said:
Are you telling me that Omniscience does not mean "knowing all that is knowable?"

If so, then we disagree on more than what is knowable.
Knowable for GOD!


No, but if the Bible says it, it is true.
That's not what you said. :nono: You said, "Do you think I'm the only one who believes this?" As if majority opinion counts.... :rolleyes:




I quit relying on my own understanding, and open theism is where I was led.
Oh, so then, you rely on what other people think? What about what God thinks? :think:

1] I never said it was a rtest of Satan.
2] God does not use Satan against us.
You said, "....God knew that Satan was an idiot and would get his nose rubbed in it again.
That, "God probably enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself."
The lesson was not about Satan being an idiot or God delighting in his foolishness, but that's what you made it out to be.


You're right.
:shocked: :noway:
But Abraham did try to bargain with God, thinking he might change His mind, on the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah... Genesis 18:23-33
Didn't happen though, did it? :nono:

Jeremiah 19:5
What are you trying to prove with this quote? "nor did it come into My mind." This was God emphasizing that He did not command the the people to burn their sons, like a burnt offering to Baal.
Context, Brandon......


Like you did using that last quote...trying to make God's word fit into your preconcieved idea of who God is and what He is capable of....or not......so that you can be right.
Shame on you! :nono:




Genesis 22:12
So, then God is not omniscient? If He knows all present things, didn't he already know that Abraham feared Him?
Obviously this is a test of Abraham. Tests are not for God's benefit, but for our benefit. When God speaks, He often uses phrases in the form of a question to reveal to us, spiritual truths. This is not uncommon in scripture, as in Genesis 3:9. Do you really think God didn't know where Adam was?
Think, Brandon.....
Can you serve a God with limited knowledge and still have complete faith that He does not make mistakes?


Name the pagan who thought of open theism...
Pagan? :think: Perhaps not, but.....a leading proponent of this "open thiesm" theology is a Professor Clark Pinnock who teaches theology at McMaster Divinity College in Canada. And a book called "The Openess of God." Published by IVP 1994.


In that instance I was referring to humans, but angels have free will as well. And so do animals. Anything sentient has free will.
Animals were not created in the image of God. Instinct? Perhaps, but free will? :think:


Really?:rolleyes:

What does that verse prove? Only that God determines things.
:duh:
I do not think Omniscience, or Trinity are hard to define.
:rolleyes:


I have studied, and I have never found God saying that He had exhaustive foreknowledge.
You should study more....... :rolleyes:
Did it happen forty days after Jonah's prophecy?
Ok, then, let's approach this from another angle. In Jeramiah 18:8-9 we see that God will not bring about destruction on a nation if its people repent....turn from its sin, which is what happened after Jonah preached.
God simply ordained the means of that repentance by threatening Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. They repented and God relented.

Are you daft? If a decision is not a change, what is?!:bang:
When did God change His mind about creating the earth before He created it? As you stated....


I've never met anyone as stubbornly ignorant as you.
:kiss: and I love you too!

God said that David's child would die. David was not merely praying that circumstances would change, but that God would change His mind!
Did God change His mind?
Nope.... :nono:

The child was not being punished. David and Bathsheba were. And the fact that God did not have david condemned to death is definitely a change of mind for God, since He had decreed that adulteres be put to death.
2Samuel 5:12 the promise God gave to David, was given by God even though God knew what was in David's heart.


How sure are you that that is what everlasting means?
According to Vine's Expository Dictionary; everlasting means:eternal. Look 'em both up. :poly:


What are you, a third grader?
;) :kiss:


Where is it documented that He did?
And round and round we go........... :juggle: :dizzy:


No. It is only proof that God created a measurement of time. Not time itself.
Our measurement of time. Ok...but doesn't the bible say that He created all things?
I never said it did. Also, God's character never changes. I have never said that it did.
You say that God changes His mind. If He can change His mind and be arbitrary, then why not change what He wishes?

How so? Timelessness is the illogical concept. Not open theism.
Says you.....
Timelessness is not illogical. Uncomprehendable to our finite mind, perhaps, but not improbable.


Then how is it free will? If you cannot choose otherwise, how is it that your will is free?
:beanboy: Just baiting your circular reasoning.....I never seem to have a problem eating what I want when I want, so no imposition to my free will. See the ice cream/ broccoli analogy I gave to deardelmar. :D
You seem to place a higher value on your precious free will over the truth about God's omniscience. :think:
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Agape4Robin said:
Knowable for GOD!
Could God know something that does not exist?


That's not what you said. :nono: You said, "Do you think I'm the only one who believes this?" As if majority opinion counts.... :rolleyes:
Do what? I said that because you acted like I was the only one. And then I said that the Bible teaches it, because it does.




Oh, so then, you rely on what other people think? What about what God thinks? :think:
Are you really that daft? I was being led, by God, apart from the doctrines of men, into this arena of thinking. It simply occured to me that the God I know would work this way. Well, that He would at least choose not to know who would and who would not go to hell, especially since Christ died for all men. Then I heard someone else say somehting similar, and I was shocked. I had considered the death of Christ for all men, and Abraham sacraficing Isaac, and "The Fall," all the while wondering why God would do these things if He already knew what the outcome would be. It made more sense that He did not know. And then I was shown, Biblically, that He did not know. He was preparing me before I even realized it.

You said, "....God knew that Satan was an idiot and would get his nose rubbed in it again.
That, "God probably enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself."
The lesson was not about Satan being an idiot or God delighting in his foolishness, but that's what you made it out to be.
I've always thought it was funny that Satan thought he could win. He's a fool, and it's fun to laugh at him. He's already lost the war, but he keeps fighting. What a tool!


:shocked: :noway:
What?

Didn't happen though, did it? :nono:
No. What does that ahve to do with it? God said He would look to see... I wonder why He said that.:think:

What are you trying to prove with this quote? "nor did it come into My mind." This was God emphasizing that He did not command the the people to burn their sons, like a burnt offering to Baal.
Context, Brandon......
He already said He never commanded it. The quote was that He never even thought that people ould do such a thing.


Like you did using that last quote...trying to make God's word fit into your preconcieved idea of who God is and what He is capable of....or not......so that you can be right.
Shame on you! :nono:
Bull:shut: God said what He said. It wasn't a figure of speech.




So, then God is not omniscient? If He knows all present things, didn't he already know that Abraham feared Him?
Obviously this is a test of Abraham. Tests are not for God's benefit, but for our benefit. When God speaks, He often uses phrases in the form of a question to reveal to us, spiritual truths. This is not uncommon in scripture, as in Genesis 3:9. Do you really think God didn't know where Adam was?
Think, Brandon.....
Can you serve a God with limited knowledge and still have complete faith that He does not make mistakes?
1] I never said God was not omniscient.
2] God knew Abraham feared Him, but He did not know how far Abraham's faith would go.
3] Tests are for a multitude of reasons.
4] What question are you talking about?
5] God very well may have chosen to not know where Adam and Eve were, for the sake of letting them reveal themselves.
6] Yes, I can. God takes risks, but does not make mistakes.


Pagan? :think: Perhaps not, but.....a leading proponent of this "open thiesm" theology is a Professor Clark Pinnock who teaches theology at McMaster Divinity College in Canada. And a book called "The Openess of God." Published by IVP 1994.
And? They are Christians. And they found the the truth of it in the Bible. Timelessness is not found in the Bible, anywhere.:nono:

Animals were not created in the image of God. Instinct? Perhaps, but free will? :think:
Do you thik God controls the animals like puppets? They are driven by instincts, yes, but they are not controlled by an outside force.


And?

Do you have a problem with that?


You should study more....... :rolleyes:
Why do you think I come here? Can you show me where exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events is one of God's attributes? Where in the Bible?

Ok, then, let's approach this from another angle. In Jeramiah 18:8-9 we see that God will not bring about destruction on a nation if its people repent....turn from its sin, which is what happened after Jonah preached.
God simply ordained the means of that repentance by threatening Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. They repented and God relented.
And? The prophecy went unfulfilled, didn't it? I'm guessing you use the NKJV.

Now, did God know they would repent? If so, why not just call them to repentance? Why did He "threaten" them? Does God threaten? Or does He promise? All the story of Nineveh shows us in light of Jeremiah 18:8-9 [if you ignore everything else] is that God keeps His promises. And of course, the verses in Jer. show that He sometimes repents of a promise, under certain conditions. So He repented of one promise, and in so doing kept another.:think:

When did God change His mind about creating the earth before He created it? As you stated....
When He decided to create it. He hadn't decided to create it before that, had He? That was a change. And, once again, if you look above to the previous contention, God changed His mind in regard to Nineveh.


:kiss: and I love you too!
I'm reminded f the inscription on the paddle my dad used to have...

Did God change His mind?
Nope.... :nono:
So? This doesn't change the fact that David, a man after God's own heart, thought He might.

2Samuel 5:12 the promise God gave to David, was given by God even though God knew what was in David's heart.
What exactly was in David's heart at that time? Anything you take issue with? Anything that would make one think God would not want David to be king?

Speaking of Israel's kings and God wanting, or not wanting, them... God regretted that He had made Saul king. How could God regret if He knew what was going to happen? oR is this another figure of speech?

And speaking of God's regrets, He regretted that He had made man, which is what led to the flood.


According to Vine's Expository Dictionary; everlasting means:eternal. Look 'em both up. :poly:
God is everlasting, and eternal. So? How is that affected by the future not existing yet, and the past having passed into nonexistence?


Well?


And round and round we go........... :juggle: :dizzy:
And another refusal to answer a question.


measurement of time. Ok...but doesn't the bible say that He created all things?
He created all created things. The Father did not create the Son, the Son is uncreated. God did not create darkness, it was already there. Same with time.

You say that God changes His mind. If He can change His mind and be arbitrary, then why not change what He wishes?
Who says He hasn't?

Anything specific you're getting at, here?

Says you.....
Timelessness is not illogical. Uncomprehendable to our finite mind, perhaps, but not improbable.
Then try to figure it out. Go ahead. It is completely logically incompatible with free will. And is impossible, unless there are endless dimensions of time so that all things can continue happening, simultaneously, for all eternity...:dizzy:


:beanboy: Just baiting your circular reasoning.....I never seem to have a problem eating what I want when I want, so no imposition to my free will. See the ice cream/ broccoli analogy I gave to deardelmar. :D
You seem to place a higher value on your precious free will over the truth about God's omniscience. :think:
Truth about God's omniscience? The Bible is clear on the subject. And you have already admitted that it is impossible to eat anything other than what God knows you're going to eat, if He knows it, that is...
 

Agape4Robin

Member
Lighthouse said:
Could God know something that does not exist?
The cross didn't exist as an instrument of death in the time of Isaiah, yet he prophesied Christ's death upon it.

Do what? I said that because you acted like I was the only one. And then I said that the Bible teaches it, because it does.
According to your literal eisegisis, it might.



Are you really that daft?
I am not stupid, Brandon. Stop saying that or this conversation is over! :sozo2:

I was being led, by God, apart from the doctrines of men, into this arena of thinking. It simply occured to me that the God I know would work this way. Well, that He would at least choose not to know who would and who would not go to hell, especially since Christ died for all men. Then I heard someone else say somehting similar, and I was shocked. I had considered the death of Christ for all men, and Abraham sacraficing Isaac, and "The Fall," all the while wondering why God would do these things if He already knew what the outcome would be. It made more sense that He did not know. And then I was shown, Biblically, that He did not know. He was preparing me before I even realized it.
Good for you........... :BRAVO:
I've always thought it was funny that Satan thought he could win. He's a fool, and it's fun to laugh at him. He's already lost the war, but he keeps fighting. What a tool!
You should know your enemy.


He already said He never commanded it. The quote was that He never even thought that people ould do such a thing.
Context......
Don't read each verse by itself......compare it with the texts prior to and following that one verse.


Bull:shut: God said what He said. It wasn't a figure of speech.
context, context, context..................




1] I never said God was not omniscient.
2] God knew Abraham feared Him, but He did not know how far Abraham's faith would go.
3] Tests are for a multitude of reasons.
4] What question are you talking about?
5] God very well may have chosen to not know where Adam and Eve were, for the sake of letting them reveal themselves.
6] Yes, I can. God takes risks, but does not make mistakes.
1. Ok........
2. :nono:
3. None of which have to do with God's enrichment.
4. :bang:
5. So, you agree that God did in fact know where they were.
6. Risks carry no consequences of failure? Is failure a mistake?

And? They are Christians. And they found the the truth of it in the Bible. Timelessness is not found in the Bible, anywhere.:nono:
They are? Are you sure?

Do you thik God controls the animals like puppets? They are driven by instincts, yes, but they are not controlled by an outside force.
Then explain how the animals got to the Ark.

Oh wait, the bible does.....Genesis 6:20 " Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive."

Why do you think I come here? Can you show me where exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events is one of God's attributes? Where in the Bible?
I do, but you disregard the information I have supplied.

And? The prophecy went unfulfilled, didn't it? I'm guessing you use the NKJV.
Nope....see Nahum and Zephaniah....we've been through this already. :doh:
Now, did God know they would repent? If so, why not just call them to repentance? Why did He "threaten" them? Does God threaten? Or does He promise? All the story of Nineveh shows us in light of Jeremiah 18:8-9 [if you ignore everything else] is that God keeps His promises. And of course, the verses in Jer. show that He sometimes repents of a promise, under certain conditions. So He repented of one promise, and in so doing kept another.:think:
You really make God out to be pretty wish washy.

When He decided to create it. He hadn't decided to create it before that, had He? That was a change. And, once again, if you look above to the previous contention, God changed His mind in regard to Nineveh.
And so you have exhaustive knowledge? I haven't read anywhere in the scriptures where it talks of God deciding to not create the heavens and the earth before He actually did so.


I'm reminded f the inscription on the paddle my dad used to have...
:rolleyes:
So? This doesn't change the fact that David, a man after God's own heart, thought He might.
The man who murdered a man so that he could have his wife......he was after more than God's own heart.

What exactly was in David's heart at that time? Anything you take issue with? Anything that would make one think God would not want David to be king?
Only that God knew of this future event...before it happened.
Speaking of Israel's kings and God wanting, or not wanting, them... God regretted that He had made Saul king. How could God regret if He knew what was going to happen? oR is this another figure of speech?

And speaking of God's regrets, He regretted that He had made man, which is what led to the flood.
Apparently you don't have kids......you wouldn't understand the analogy about being disappointed in them....talk to me when you do.


God is everlasting, and eternal. So? How is that affected by the future not existing yet, and the past having passed into nonexistence?
:doh: You just don't get it......


And another refusal to answer a question.
I have answered it....



He created all created things. The Father did not create the Son, the Son is uncreated. God did not create darkness, it was already there. Same with time.
He used the elements of dark and light to create a point to which time can be measured.
Who says He hasn't?

Anything specific you're getting at, here?


Then try to figure it out. Go ahead. It is completely logically incompatible with free will. And is impossible, unless there are endless dimensions of time so that all things can continue happening, simultaneously, for all eternity...:dizzy:
I said Incomprehensable but not improbable.
Truth about God's omniscience? The Bible is clear on the subject. And you have already admitted that it is impossible to eat anything other than what God knows you're going to eat, if He knows it, that is...
Ok then, I change my mind.....I can eat anything I want, filet mignon or not!
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Agape4Robin said:
The cross didn't exist as an instrument of death in the time of Isaiah, yet he prophesied Christ's death upon it.
Prove it. No cross was ever mentioned.

According to your literal eisegisis, it might.
What's wrong with taking it literally?



I am not stupid, Brandon. Stop saying that or this conversation is over! :sozo2:
Then quit obfuscating that black and white of Scripture.

Good for you........... :BRAVO:
Does that not seem interesting to you?

You should know your enemy.
What's that supposed to mean?


Context......
Don't read each verse by itself......compare it with the texts prior to and following that one verse.
I do read in context.


context, context, context..................
Can you prove it's contextually wrong?




1. Ok........
2. :nono:
3. None of which have to do with God's enrichment.
4. :bang:
5. So, you agree that God did in fact know where they were.
6. Risks carry no consequences of failure? Is failure a mistake?
Definitely wrong on point 2, and the answer is no on point 5. If He didn't want to know, then He did not know. And as for point six, Is God going to bring all people into heaven? Is that a failure? Is it a mistake?

They are? Are you sure?
Yes. The guy who wrote, The Openness of God also published a book entitled, Letters from a Skeptic, which is a collection of letters sent back and forth between him and his dad. His dad was an atheist, and his son was trying to find a way to reach his dad, so he offered to answer all of his questions. His dad became a Christian, during this discourse, and that is what caused Greg to publish the letters. Bob Enyart is also a proponent of Open Theism, and he is a Christian. He's the pastor of Denver Bible Church. Knight, the owner of this site, goes to that church. Knight is an open theist. He is also a Christian. The same goes for all of the administrators, and the moderators.

Then explain how the animals got to the Ark.
God intervened. But He isn't constantly controlling every movement of every animal, currently.:nono:

Oh wait, the bible does.....Genesis 6:20 " Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive."
See.

I do, but you disregard the information I have supplied.
You're not making a very good argument if I can refute it so easily.

Nope....see Nahum and Zephaniah....we've been through this already. :doh:
Don't be obtuse. The bottom line is that it was prophecied they would be destroyed in forty days, and they weren't. Get over it.

You really make God out to be pretty wish washy.
:rolleyes:

And so you have exhaustive knowledge? I haven't read anywhere in the scriptures where it talks of God deciding to not create the heavens and the earth before He actually did so.
Wait, you think God decided to create the heavens and the earth before He decided to create the heavens and the earth? Because, that's what I was talking about.


Don't worry about it.

The man who murdered a man so that he could have his wife......he was after more than God's own heart.
Wrong. He murdered him so that no one would know they committed adultery, because she was pregnant, and Uriah wouldn't come home to sleep with his wife.

Only that God knew of this future event...before it happened.
Have you proven that? Was it in David's heart, at the time?

Apparently you don't have kids......you wouldn't understand the analogy about being disappointed in them....talk to me when you do.
I know exactly what God means. He was dissapointed. It isn't an analogy, or a metaphor. It's literal truth.

:doh: You just don't get it......
No, you don't get it.


I have answered it....
No you didn't. This isn't the same question that toook you five times to answer. It's another one. And now, this is your third chance to answer it.



He used the elements of dark and light to create a point to which time can be measured.
And?

I said Incomprehensable but not improbable.
It's completely improbable. It makes no sense.

Ok then, I change my mind.....I can eat anything I want, filet mignon or not!
Bull. You're a horrible liar, Robin.
 

Agape4Robin

Member
Lighthouse said:
Prove it. No cross was ever mentioned.
I was thinking of Deuteronomy 21:23, that proves or is contrasted by Galatians 3:13. And of course you know of the prophecies concerning Christ, written in the Psalms and Isaiah. However, the whole of the OT shows the foreshadowing of Christ.
What's wrong with taking it literally?
I can agree that there are places in scripture that can be taken in its literal sense. But don't you know that the bible has hidden treasure? Golden nuggets, pearls of wisdom? Our english translated bible is only a translation, it is only parts of stories....pieces of the whole picture that only God holds, but in His grace and wisdom, has revealed great truths of which even the simplest truths are tailored for finite minds such as ours. It's God's revelation of Himself to us. Can man ever contemplate the wholeness of God? Can we capture Him with words? Faith is believing though we cannot see. I have faith that if God designed me with free will, then He would choose not to impose on it. His desire is that I would love Him and trust Him completely....even when I don't understand. My desire is that I fulfill His will for my life, to be the woman He designed me to be.




Then quit obfuscating that black and white of Scripture.
And you literalize and oversimplify.

Does that not seem interesting to you?
:nono:


What's that supposed to mean?
Only that Satan takes you seriously. While you are laughing at him, he is plotting your downfall. While you may not lose your salvation, he can still use you to bring shame and dishonor to the name of Christ. Any good soldier knows when to take his enemy seriously. That is why scripture has supplied our battle gear. Have you ever done a study on this? It's quite fascinating.



I do read in context.



Can you prove it's contextually wrong?
I did..... :doh:



Definitely wrong on point 2, and the answer is no on point 5. If He didn't want to know, then He did not know. And as for point six, Is God going to bring all people into heaven? Is that a failure? Is it a mistake?
As for point #2, I told you already that "tests" are not for God's benefit! God has exhaustive knowledge. There is nothing more for Him to learn! Point #5, in order for God to choose not to know, on what would He base the decision to choose?
On point #6 you said God takes risks......what risk is without the possibility of mistakes?
God a failure? Makes mistakes? :nono:
God is no "risk-taker"......He is certain of His plans.

Yes. The guy who wrote, The Openness of God also published a book entitled, Letters from a Skeptic, which is a collection of letters sent back and forth between him and his dad. His dad was an atheist, and his son was trying to find a way to reach his dad, so he offered to answer all of his questions. His dad became a Christian, during this discourse, and that is what caused Greg to publish the letters. Bob Enyart is also a proponent of Open Theism, and he is a Christian. He's the pastor of Denver Bible Church. Knight, the owner of this site, goes to that church. Knight is an open theist. He is also a Christian. The same goes for all of the administrators, and the moderators.
And not every christian is right about all matters concerning God. Me included.
God intervened. But He isn't constantly controlling every movement of every animal, currently.:nono:


See.
Like I said, instinct.....yes, as God designed them. Free will? I don't think so. On this point I do not know for sure, but I don't think animals have a soul.
You're not making a very good argument if I can refute it so easily.
You are being stubborn. Your refutations are based on your eisegesis.

Don't be obtuse. The bottom line is that it was prophecied they would be destroyed in forty days, and they weren't. Get over it.
Did you read them or not?




Wait, you think God decided to create the heavens and the earth before He decided to create the heavens and the earth? Because, that's what I was talking about.
What?! :dizzy:


Wrong. He murdered him so that no one would know they committed adultery, because she was pregnant, and Uriah wouldn't come home to sleep with his wife.
Wrong. Uriah did come home. He wouldn't sleep with Bathsheba. His conscience could not allow him to enjoy such pleasure while his men were dying on the battlefield.

I know exactly what God means. He was dissapointed. It isn't an analogy, or a metaphor. It's literal truth.
As for God's regret about Saul...this is an example of anthropomorphic expression. God is working relative to us; that is, He is working in our time frame and expresses "human-like" emotions after seeing what people have done in their sinfulness. This is natural and is to be expected if we assume that God works with us and through us as we go about our daily life. ( paraphrased from CARM)

No, you don't get it.
How does the past pass into "non-existance"? It doesn't. What does it mean when God "remembers our sin no more..." it simply means that He no longer holds them against us, if we are repentant.



No you didn't. This isn't the same question that toook you five times to answer. It's another one. And now, this is your third chance to answer it.
:chuckle: What was the question?


It's completely improbable. It makes no sense.
Yeah, ok......whatever!


Bull. You're a horrible liar, Robin.
You don't like my first answer, so...... :rolleyes:
Remember? The one I gave you when we started this dialogue.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Before I start I must ask, could you please start using the quote function properly?

Agape4Robin said:
I was thinking of Deuteronomy 21:23, that proves or is contrasted by Galatians 3:13. And of course you know of the prophecies concerning Christ, written in the Psalms and Isaiah. However, the whole of the OT shows the foreshadowing of Christ.
So? I have no reason to believe that God did not work out the details of His plan. He thought it out, and gave information to His prophets so they could prophecy. Then, when it came time He did exactly what He said would be done. This does not contradict the open view.

I can agree that there are places in scripture that can be taken in its literal sense. But don't you know that the bible has hidden treasure? Golden nuggets, pearls of wisdom? Our english translated bible is only a translation, it is only parts of stories....pieces of the whole picture that only God holds, but in His grace and wisdom, has revealed great truths of which even the simplest truths are tailored for finite minds such as ours. It's God's revelation of Himself to us. Can man ever contemplate the wholeness of God? Can we capture Him with words? Faith is believing though we cannot see. I have faith that if God designed me with free will, then He would choose not to impose on it. His desire is that I would love Him and trust Him completely....even when I don't understand. My desire is that I fulfill His will for my life, to be the woman He designed me to be.
I agree with that. And the open view openly states that God does not impose on our free will.




And you literalize and oversimplify.
How so? Metaphor and simile exist in the Bible. So does allegory and parable. But there is no reason to think that God did not mean what He said, when He said, [Jesus]"Now I know..."[/Jesus]

You don't find it interesting that in prayer I came to the conclusion that God does not know who will and who will not go to hell, and then at a much later date [years later] found that others believe this as well? And that they showed me why, with the Bible?

Only that Satan takes you seriously. While you are laughing at him, he is plotting your downfall. While you may not lose your salvation, he can still use you to bring shame and dishonor to the name of Christ. Any good soldier knows when to take his enemy seriously. That is why scripture has supplied our battle gear. Have you ever done a study on this? It's quite fascinating.
I do not fear Satan. And fear is the only power he could ever have over a child of God. He has no power over me, and I have no reason to fear that he could bring me down.:nono:


I did..... :doh:
No, you didn't.



As for point #2, I told you already that "tests" are not for God's benefit! God has exhaustive knowledge. There is nothing more for Him to learn! Point #5, in order for God to choose not to know, on what would He base the decision to choose?
On point #6 you said God takes risks......what risk is without the possibility of mistakes?
Is it a mistake that not everybody goes to heaven? Of course not! But it is a risk. And one that God was willing to take, in order to save whoever would come to Him.

God a failure? Makes mistakes? :nono:
God is no "risk-taker"......He is certain of His plans.
Of course He's certain of His plans. But He is not willing that any should perish, but they do! God did not fail, or make a mistake. Thos who reject Him are the ones who fail, and have made a grave mistake.

And not every christian is right about all matters concerning God. Me included.
Like I said, instinct.....yes, as God designed them. Free will? I don't think so. On this point I do not know for sure, but I don't think animals have a soul.
You are being stubborn. Your refutations are based on your eisegesis.
Animals don't have souls. And they are not capable of understandfing human concepts, but they are not puppets. They are not controlled by an outside force. They go where they want. They eat what they want. They make choices.

Did you read them or not?
I know Nineveh was later destroyed. But that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that God did not destroy them at the time He said He would when He sent Jonah. He changed His mind.



What?! :dizzy:
Exactly. When God decided to create it was a change. He had not decided to create before then.

Wrong. Uriah did come home. He wouldn't sleep with Bathsheba. His conscience could not allow him to enjoy such pleasure while his men were dying on the battlefield.
I know he came home. That's why I use the word "to." He didn't come home to sleep with his wife. I never said he didn't come home. And it was because he didn't sleep wiht her that David had him killed. If Uriah had slept with Bathsheba then it would have been thought to be his child. But God, knowing it wasn't, worked on Uriah's conscience so he wouldn't. And then David had him killed, and took Bathsheba in and married here, so no one would know they had had an affair. He believed everyone would think they conceived the child on their wedding night. But God had other plans. However, this has nothing to do with the issue.

As for God's regret about Saul...this is an example of anthropomorphic expression. God is working relative to us; that is, He is working in our time frame and expresses "human-like" emotions after seeing what people have done in their sinfulness. This is natural and is to be expected if we assume that God works with us and through us as we go about our daily life. ( paraphrased from CARM)
See, there you go. Denying that it's literal. I believe that references to God's heart, and God's arm are anthropomorphisms. But God made us in His image, mentally and emotionally. We may not possess the knowledge He does, but we get angry, and disappointed, just like He does. Do you think God didn't mean it when He said he regretted something? Or when He said He was angry?

And how can you not see the hoops that have to be gone through, and the things that have to be ignored, and the logic that has to be skirted, in order to come to that conclusion?

How does the past pass into "non-existance"? It doesn't. What does it mean when God "remembers our sin no more..." it simply means that He no longer holds them against us, if we are repentant.
It passes into non-existence, in that it is no longer there. It is over, and gone. It no longer exists. Do you think God can reach into the past, and change things?


:chuckle: What was the question?
Where is it documented that God knew the specifics of what Pharoah would say, or how long it would take to before Pharoah told Moses to take the Israelites out of Egypt?


Yeah, ok......whatever!
DO you think it makes any sense?


You don't like my first answer, so...... :rolleyes:
Remember? The one I gave you when we started this dialogue.
You cannot do anything other than what God knows you will do. That is, if He knows. If He does not, then you have a real choice. In order for you to have a choice, even if God could know the future exhaustively, He would have to choose not to know your choice, until you made it.
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Agape4Robin said:
A really good idea?
Yes, because I believe infinte knowledge does not include knowlege of all things not yet determined or not yet in existence.
Ps 147:5 "[God's] understanding is infinite."
puting the phrases that back up your beliefs does not make your opinion more relivent.
Ezekiel 11:5 " Then the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said to me, "Speak! 'Thus says the Lord: "Thus you have said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind."."
I agree that the moment somthing enters your mind God knows it!
Acts 15:18 "Known to God from all eternity are His works."
from the begining of time , yes.

Romans 11:33 "Oh the depths of His riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out"

1 John 3:20 "For if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things."

Hebrews 4:13 "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give an account." [/QUOTE]
great quotes but we both know that, when the Bible refers to all things, you take it to mean all things present, past and future and I take it to mean all things present and past and that part of the future that God has pre ordained. So we are at an impass on this point.
When I say that God is omniscient, I mean that He knows all that there is to know. There is nothing outside the scope of His conception, understanding or attention. God neither studies or learns for one cannot increase a knowledge that is already insurmountable. Neither does probablity exist for God; all things either are or are not in His perspective.
Again I agree with your words, but since the future does not exist, it and much of it hasn't even been caused yet it can not logicly be included in the scope of all that there is to know.
There is no maybe. There are no potentially infinite realities as the faux-hip coffee houses or comic book writers are so fond of speculating. There is one reality and God knows it in its entirety, as it exist by, through and for Him. God is neither surprised by the way the world works itself out, nor shocked by the choices we make. Omniscience is the passive end of His providence- the working out of God's predestined purpose via His sovereignty- in that it is by the means which providence can exist, but neither the engine, nor the fuel that brings about His action.(Quoted from the Blue letter Bible)
There are many examples in the Bible that don't seem to agree with you, but rather suggest that God changes his reaction to people because of the actions of people.
The term Omniscience does not occur in scripture either in its nominal or its adjectival form.
In the OT it is expressed with such words as da'ath, binah, tebhunah, chokhmah: also "seeing", and "hearing", "the eye" and "the ear" occur as the figures for the knowledge of God , as "arm, hand or finger" serve to express His power. In the NT are found ginoskein, gnosis, eidenai, and sophia in the same connection.

It extends to all the divisions of time, the past, present and future alike. (Job 14:17, Psalms 56:8, Isaiah 41:22-24, 44:6-8, Jeramiah 1:5, Hosea 13:12, and Malachai 3:16.)

God's Omniscience and Human Free-will

Since scripture includes in the objects of the divine knowledge also the issue of the excercise of free-will on the part of man, the problem arises, how the contingent character of such decisions and the certainty of the divine knowledge can coexist. It is true that the knowledge of God and the puposing will of God are distinct, and that not the former but the latter determines the certainty of the outcome. Consequently, the divine omniscience in such cases adds nor detracts nothing in reguard to the certainty of the event. God's omniscience does not produce but presupposes the certainty by which the problem is raised. At the same time, precisely because omniscience presupposes certainty, it appears to exclude every conception of contingency in the free acts of man, such as would render the latter in their very essence undetermined. The knowledge of the issue must have a fixed point of certainty to terminate upon, if it is to be knowledge at all. Those who make the essence of freedom absolute indeterminateness must, therefore, exempt this class of events from the scope of the divine omniscience. But this is contrary to all the testimony of Scripture, which distinctly makes God's absolute knowledge extend to such acts. (Acts 2:23) It has been attempted to construe a peculiar form of the divine knowledge, which would relate to this class of acts specifically, the so-called scientia media, to be distinguished from the scientia necessaria, which has for its object, God Himself, and the scientia libera which terminates upon the certainties of the world outside of God, as determined by His freewill. This scientia media would then be based on God's foresight of the outcome of the free choice of man.It would involve a knowledge of receptivity, a contribution of the sum total of what God knows derived from observation on His part of the world-process. That is to say that it would be knowledge a posteriori in essence, though not in point of time. It is, however, difficult to see how such a knowledge can be possible in God, when the outcome is psychologically undetermined and undeterminable. The knowledge could originate no sooner than the determination originates through the free decision of man. It would, therefore, necessarily become an a posteriori knowledge in time as well as in essence. The appeal to God's eternity as bringing Him equally near to the future as well as to the present and enabling Him to see the future decisions of man's free will as theough they were present cannot remove this difficulty, for when once the observation and knowledge of God are made dependant on any temporal issue, the divine eternity itself is thereby virtually denied. Nothing remains but to recognize that God's eternal knowledge of the outcome of the freewill choices of man implies that there enters into these choices, notwithstanding their free character, an element of predetermination, to which the knowledge of God can attach itself.
(Quoted from: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. "Omniscience")

It is my understanding, that God knows the choices that I make(even before I do), but in that His knowledge is not preventive or causative. His knowing does not change or cause the outcome of my choices. Although I am a part of the plan of God.
I am well aware that you understand it that way, it simply does not make sense to me that God could know all future events with out causing all future events nor is it logical to believe that God is unable to react to events
For instance, I know that the sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it or preventing it from rising by knowing it will happen.

The only reason that you know that the sun will rise tomorrow is that you are aware of the fact that God created it in such a way that it rises every day.
Likewise, if I place a bowl of ice-cream in front of my child and a bowl of brussel sprouts, I know which will be chosen by him. He will choose the ice cream. My knowing this ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. Knowing that choice has no effect on him when he makes it.
yet
Who are you kidding you forced him to choose the ice cream by making brussel sprouts the other choice.
Ah but what if he was choosing between a fudge brownie and ice cream
 
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Balder

New member
Who are you kidding you forced him to choose the ice cream by making brussel sprouts the other choice.
Ah but what if he was choosing between a fudge brownie and ice cream

Eating brussel sprouts has always been a hellish experience for me. With that in mind, do you think God has acted similarly to the person in the scenario above, saying, "Here's your choices: eternal bliss if you say you love me, eternal suffering in fire if you don't"?
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Agape4Robin said:
Knowable for GOD!
We are all aware by now that you think the open veiw is herasy.
That's not what you said. :nono: You said, "Do you think I'm the only one who believes this?" As if majority opinion counts.... :rolleyes:





Oh, so then, you rely on what other people think? What about what God thinks? :think:


You said, "....God knew that Satan was an idiot and would get his nose rubbed in it again.
That, "God probably enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself."
The lesson was not about Satan being an idiot or God delighting in his foolishness, but that's what you made it out to be.



:shocked: :noway:

Didn't happen though, did it? :nono:


What are you trying to prove with this quote? "nor did it come into My mind." This was God emphasizing that He did not command the the people to burn their sons, like a burnt offering to Baal.
Context, Brandon......



Like you did using that last quote...trying to make God's word fit into your preconcieved idea of who God is and what He is capable of....or not......so that you can be right.
Shame on you! :nono:
You are doing the exact same thing with your preconcieved idea that God is outside of time
So, then God is not omniscient? If He knows all present things, didn't he already know that Abraham feared Him?
Obviously this is a test of Abraham. Tests are not for God's benefit, but for our benefit. When God speaks, He often uses phrases in the form of a question to reveal to us, spiritual truths. This is not uncommon in scripture, as in Genesis 3:9. Do you really think God didn't know where Adam was?
Think, Brandon.....
Can you serve a God with limited knowledge and still have complete faith that He does not make mistakes?

Pagan? :think: Perhaps not, but.....a leading proponent of this "open thiesm" theology is a Professor Clark Pinnock who teaches theology at McMaster Divinity College in Canada. And a book called "The Openess of God." Published by IVP 1994.


Animals were not created in the image of God. Instinct? Perhaps, but free will? :think:



:duh:

:rolleyes:



You should study more....... :rolleyes:

Ok, then, let's approach this from another angle. In Jeramiah 18:8-9 we see that God will not bring about destruction on a nation if its people repent....turn from its sin, which is what happened after Jonah preached.
God simply ordained the means of that repentance by threatening Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. They repented and God relented.
and if they would not have repented God would not have relented.
When did God change His mind about creating the earth before He created it? As you stated....
He changed his mind when he decided to flood the whole earth and start things over
:kiss: and I love you too!


Did God change His mind?
Nope.... :nono:


2Samuel 5:12 the promise God gave to David, was given by God even though God knew what was in David's heart.



According to Vine's Expository Dictionary; everlasting means:eternal. Look 'em both up. :poly:



;) :kiss:



And round and round we go........... :juggle: :dizzy:



Our measurement of time. Ok...but doesn't the bible say that He created all things?

You say that God changes His mind. If He can change His mind and be arbitrary, then why not change what He wishes?


Says you.....
Timelessness is not illogical. Uncomprehendable to our finite mind, perhaps, but not improbable.



:beanboy: Just baiting your circular reasoning.....I never seem to have a problem eating what I want when I want, so no imposition to my free will. See the ice cream/ broccoli analogy I gave to deardelmar. :D
You seem to place a higher value on your precious free will over the truth about God's omniscience. :think:
No, God places a higher value on free will than your pagan influenced idea of omniscience
 

Agape4Robin

Member
Lighthouse said:
Before I start I must ask, could you please start using the quote function properly?
Is this better?

So? I have no reason to believe that God did not work out the details of His plan. He thought it out, and gave information to His prophets so they could prophecy. Then, when it came time He did exactly what He said would be done. This does not contradict the open view.
So you assume that the Open Theist view is the only correct one. I tire of this circular arguement. It proves nothing, and you are just as set in your beliefs as I am.

I agree with that. And the open view openly states that God does not impose on our free will.
And my Orthodox view of christianity as God being all knowing....past, present and future does not impose on my free will either.




How so? Metaphor and simile exist in the Bible. So does allegory and parable. But there is no reason to think that God did not mean what He said, when He said, [Jesus]"Now I know..."[/Jesus]
:doh:

You don't find it interesting that in prayer I came to the conclusion that God does not know who will and who will not go to hell, and then at a much later date [years later] found that others believe this as well? And that they showed me why, with the Bible?
Funny that you would say that. Beanieboy said the same thing about God leading him to buddhism.
Perhaps you two are talking to the same god. :think:
I do not fear Satan. And fear is the only power he could ever have over a child of God. He has no power over me, and I have no reason to fear that he could bring me down.:nono:
I didn't say fear. I said "know your enemy".
But hey, it's your choice. :rolleyes:
So, you don't sin? :confused:


No, you didn't.
Yes I did.




Is it a mistake that not everybody goes to heaven? Of course not! But it is a risk. And one that God was willing to take, in order to save whoever would come to Him.
Hhhmmmmm.......God the cosmic gambler....... :think:
Maybe Heaven will have a place like Las Vegas, only with out the prostitution and mafia! :darwinsm:
Of course He's certain of His plans. But He is not willing that any should perish, but they do! God did not fail, or make a mistake. Thos who reject Him are the ones who fail, and have made a grave mistake.
:duh:

Animals don't have souls. And they are not capable of understandfing human concepts, but they are not puppets. They are not controlled by an outside force. They go where they want. They eat what they want. They make choices.
:cow: :Shaggy: :aimiel: :troy: :crow2: :chicken: :dog:
I know Nineveh was later destroyed. But that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that God did not destroy them at the time He said He would when He sent Jonah. He changed His mind.
It has everything to do with it. Even if it was postponed, it still happened. :grave:



Exactly. When God decided to create it was a change. He had not decided to create before then.
A change from what?

I know he came home. That's why I use the word "to." He didn't come home to sleep with his wife. I never said he didn't come home. And it was because he didn't sleep wiht her that David had him killed. If Uriah had slept with Bathsheba then it would have been thought to be his child. But God, knowing it wasn't, worked on Uriah's conscience so he wouldn't. And then David had him killed, and took Bathsheba in and married here, so no one would know they had had an affair. He believed everyone would think they conceived the child on their wedding night. But God had other plans. However, this has nothing to do with the issue.
OY! :doh:

See, there you go. Denying that it's literal. I believe that references to God's heart, and God's arm are anthropomorphisms. But God made us in His image, mentally and emotionally. We may not possess the knowledge He does, but we get angry, and disappointed, just like He does. Do you think God didn't mean it when He said he regretted something? Or when He said He was angry?
I know enough about hermaneutics to know when to be literal or otherwise. :rolleyes:

And how can you not see the hoops that have to be gone through, and the things that have to be ignored, and the logic that has to be skirted, in order to come to that conclusion?
Same for you.........
It passes into non-existence, in that it is no longer there. It is over, and gone. It no longer exists. Do you think God can reach into the past, and change things?
I never said or implied that God reaches in to the past and changes anything. The past does exist in the past. They call it history...... :rolleyes:



Where is it documented that God knew the specifics of what Pharoah would say, or how long it would take to before Pharoah told Moses to take the Israelites out of Egypt?
Does it have to be documented? :readthis:


DO you think it makes any sense?
I don't think you make sense. :nono:



You cannot do anything other than what God knows you will do. That is, if He knows. If He does not, then you have a real choice. In order for you to have a choice, even if God could know the future exhaustively, He would have to choose not to know your choice, until you made it.
If anything God (in His wisdom) chooses not to impose His knowledge (of future events) in attempt to force us to abandon our free will. That is a truly loving and omniscient God.
 

Agape4Robin

Member
deardelmar said:
Agape4Robin said:
We are all aware by now that you think the open veiw is herasy. You are doing the exact same thing with your preconcieved idea that God is outside of time and if they would not have repented God would not have relented. He changed his mind when he decided to flood the whole earth and start things over No, God places a higher value on free will than your pagan influenced idea of omniscience
I am afraid that it is the "Open Theists" who place a higher value on free will than on God's omniscience. :think:
 
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