That is not what hurts her credibility. In fact, I fully believe she will come to an understanding of the truth, on this matter, in the near future.Caledvwlch said:
God Owes Us Big Time
- Thread starter allsmiles
- Start date
allsmiles said:
docrob57 said:
I don't know how I missed this before, but allsmiles has in this statement professed his belief in God. Not necessarily the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob mind you, but God nonetheless. So it is a start.
Examine the two statements above. Only allsmiles requires the existence of God in order for it to be true.
To say that "God does not owe me" is true regardless of whether or not God exists. If God does exist (at least the God of my understanding, see AA Big Book), then the statement is true. However, if God does not exist, the statement is equally true since something that does not exist cannot possibly owe me. Accordingly, regardless of your orientation toward God, you must admit that my statement is true.
To say that "God does owe me" however, is a different matter. If God does not exist, he cannot owe me, and, therefore, the statement is false. Only if God does exist can allsmiles statement possibly be true.
Since allsmiles would not speak falsely, it follows that he must at least believe there is a God.
Halleujah!
:juggle:
Agape4Robin
Member
Thank you.....I learned a new word today! :BRAVO:
Well then, let's define it shall we?
oly: Omniscient- (adjective) 1. Having intimate understanding, awareness and insight.
2. Possessed of universal or complete understanding.
That flies in the face of the definition of omniscient.
Sounds to me like you are questioning God's motives.
So what if He did know?
Let's take a look at Job. Do you think that God would have allowed satan to test Job if He knew that it could bring about Job's possible downfall? Or do you think that He knew Job well enough to know that Job was entirely faithful to Him?
How about Abraham? At a time when sacrificing children on the altar of Baal was common to the pagans, do you think that God's testing of Abraham was based on probability? The ram didn't come from out of nowhere, God sent it on it's journey to the place where Abraham and Issac would be, knowing that Abraham would be faithful to the point of actually sacrificing his own son at God's request.
Those "tests" were not to benefit God. Not meant for God to work out any "possibilities". Testing is meant for our benefit. To build our faith in God, not to build God's faith in us. To teach us to lean on God, not so that God would see what we might do.
The God I serve is completely and utterly in control. And He is outside of the realm of possibilities.
If I like filet mignon....what is the difference? :juggle: Him knowing it doesn't mean that He forces me to have filet mignon.....the fact that I don't know it yet means that I still have free will to choose.
The prophecy went unfullfilled? According to Nahum and Zephaniah, Ninevah was certainly judged. Those who repented were saved around the time of Jonah which was about 760 B.C., but according to the book of Nahum which was written around 612 B.C or Zephaniah which was written around 630 B.C. Ninevah was purged of its idolatrous practices and priests, the temple was cleansed and Passover was once again reinstated under King Josiah.
God didn't change His mind. He says in Malachai 3:6 " For I AM the Lord, I change not."
How can you trust a God who says something and then changes His mind? I trust the immutable, unchanging God. That doesn't mean that He is predictable, but reliable.
Exodus 6:6 "Therefore say to the children of Israel:'IAM the Lord; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with outstretched arm and with great judgements."
Sounds to me like He knew exactly what Pharoah would do as He had judgements prepared.
He didn't cause it, but He did allow it because He knew the outcome would bring glory to Himself and strengthen Joseph's faith and the faith of his brothers. Tribulations bring us to a point of humility before God, realizing our weakness brings strength of faith in God. I should qualify that by saying ......for the believer.
Why are you so intent on limiting God? He is without limits. His ways are not our ways and His timing is not our timing.
Your free will is intact. Go ahead and have that filet mignon :chew: ....or don't. It's still your choice. :thumb:
Last edited:
Yes.allsmiles said:
I learned it from godrulz.Agape4Robin said:
No it doesn't. Omniscience means to know all that is knowable. Right? My believing that the future is not knowable changes nothing of the definition of omniscience. Just like my belief that God cannot exist in Wonderland does not fly in the face of the definition of omnipresence.Well then, let's define it shall we?
Omniscient- (adjective) 1. Having intimate understanding, awareness and insight.
2. Possessed of universal or complete understanding.
That flies in the face of the definition of omniscient.
Questioning God's motives? All I'm saying is from all I've learned of God I do not believe He would have done that. God strikes me as one who, if He did know, then He wouldn't have done it. He would have done something else
Yes, and yes. Even moreso the latter, because God told Satan that exact thing.
God did not know if Abraham trusted Him enough to sacrafice Isaac, in hopes of another heir. Abraham did.
:doh:
God caused the ram to go that way, when He knew Abraham was going to the altar.
Are you calling God a liar?
Then you serve a false god.
The God I serve is in control too. And He also created free will beings, who could make choices. Choices that He does not have to specifically know in order to be in control.
If God knew who and who would not go to hell then the idea that He died for all people is a lie.
You didn't answer the question. Can you have something other than filet mignon?
Balderdash! Nineveh was not destroyed forty days after Jonah spoke the prophecy against them. It went unfulfilled, period.
I don't disagree that God's character doesn't change. But the decision to create teh Earth was a change.
He changed His mind on how He would bring people into His kingdom. I trust Him completely. Because if He does change His mind, it is for the better. Even David thought God might change His mind when Nathan spoke the prophecy that David's first child wiht Bathsheba would die. David prayed, weeping, begging God to change His mind.How can you trust a God who says something and then changes His mind? I trust the immutable, unchanging God. That doesn't mean that He is predictable, but reliable.
Do you know that the first person to speak of an immutable god was? It was Plato. Plato was not a follower of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.:nono: Plato was a pagan. He believed in the Greek gods. The ones that even the Greeks now say are mythological. No one ever presented the idea of an immutable god until then. And as far as I know, the first person to say that the God we serve is immutable was Augustine.
He knew Pharoah wouldn't let them go, because He knew Pharoah's heart. That doesn't mean He knew exactly what Pharoah would say, verbatim. Or even that Pharoah's magicians would mimic what Moses did under God's power.
He didn't cause it? Are you serious? He gave Joseph the dreams for a reason. Because He planned to put Joseph over his brothers. And that was one way it coudl be done. God did it. He caused it.
I'm not limiting God. I perceive time as having limits. And to say God cannot impose limits upon Himself, if He so chooses is limiting God. Which is exactly what you're doing.
His ways are above our ways, not lower than our ways.
You still never answered the question.
allsmiles
New member
What do you think we owe god for?
According to the christian religion he created us with one leg longer than the other and is ready to throw us into hell for having a limp. You could argue that it was man who rebelled in the first place (according to the christian bible) but it was god who created man in the first place with the ability to rebel.
Don't remember where I heard that analogy, but it's wholly unoriginal on my part.
According to the christian religion he created us with one leg longer than the other and is ready to throw us into hell for having a limp. You could argue that it was man who rebelled in the first place (according to the christian bible) but it was god who created man in the first place with the ability to rebel.
Don't remember where I heard that analogy, but it's wholly unoriginal on my part.
Agape4Robin
Member
Wrong. Look it up.
oly: I gave you the Mirriam-Webster definition of omniscient. I gave you the correct definition of the word.Oh well then, you must just be special. Do you have your own language too?
Yes, Brandon, questioning God's motives. So what if God knew in advance of the fall of Adam in the garden? God has the full picture of the good that will be brought about in the face of such pain and devastation. "For we know that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This is not only true for that time, but for all time.
He said that Job was a blameless and upright man who feared God and shunned evil. The second time Satan asked God to test Job, God said that Job held fast to his integrity inspite of the first test. So then, why allow Satan a second go at him? Simply put, trials are God's faith in our faithfulness. But like I said before, they are not to enlighten God, but to strengthen our faith.
Issac was the result of the promise of God. There were no stipulations attached to this promise, therefore there would be no hope of another heir.
To say that God does not know such things is blasphemous, and shows a serious lack of faith.
Read Job 40. In verse 2 God says, "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
In verses 3-5, Job speaks.....but what will you say?
In verses 6-14, God spoke through the whirlwind and said, "Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you and you will answer Me. 'Would you indeed annul My judgement? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? Have you an arrm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor, and array yourself with glory and beauty. Disperse the rage of your wrath; Look on everyone who is proud and humble him. Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low; Tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together, bind their faces in hidden darkness.
Then I will confess to you that your own right hand can save you."
God showed me this. I am to quote it to you. Pray and ask God for wisdom. Pray that He might give you understanding.
That is what I said.
How am I calling God a liar?
You should be very careful when you say things like that. Maybe you could get away with it when confronting beanieboy, wickwoman, Justin (Wiccan), Gnostic and the like, but you cannot level that accusation at me. I may not have perfect understanding of God, but I love Him and He knows me. I have the blood of Christ that bears witness to the God I serve.
So, humans are the only beings He created with free will?
So, because Jesus shed His blood for all men, all men are going to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven? Or did He do that so that all men may choose to accept or reject Him? Thus allowing us to excercise our free will.
I did answer the question. Sorry it didn't fit your "eisegesis".
Prove it.
A change from what?
David hoped that God would change His mind. And yet God didn't change His mind. After the child died, David stopped crying, erased all signs of grief and went to worship the Lord. Why? Because God's grace was present. God knew the child would die, but even David's fasting and prayer did not change the heart or mind of God.
God's grace is the key, Brandon.(Partially quoted from study notes in my bible) Even through our suffering. Suffering that God allows for our ultimate good. God did not cause the child's death to punish the child but to exact justice for the sin of adultery that was committed. Death was required by the Law for both murder and adultery, even for a king. However, because of David's deep repentance without making excuse and, more significantly because of the promise of 2Samuel 5:12, God gave His grace even though David's family would experience the tragic effects of sin. Do you expect that God had to know this in order that He would make good on His promise in 2Samuel 5:12? I do.
And your point is....... :yawn:
:LoJo: So, he knew Pharoah's heart, but not what was in it? Does the bible say that, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."?
I don't see the logic of your statement. Either He does or He doesn't.......which is it?
Really? Where does it say that God sold Joseph into slavery? Because I don't have that in my bible. In my bible, it says that his brothers did it. Hhhmmmm........ :think:
I will say it again......God allowed it.
Time has limits. God created the concept of time. Therefore, He is not constrained by it.
Was Jesus limited by His creation? Only yes, because He allowed it. But in His demonstration of His power (as God), did He not walk on the water? Did He not command the winds and the waves to cease? Did He not transfigure Himself on the mountain and talk with Elijah and Moses?
:duh:
Yes I did. Apparently it doesn't conform to your "eisegisis".
And here I was, thinking the Biblical definition was the correcte definition. How silly of me.Agape4Robin said:Wrong. Look it up.
Do you think I'm the only person who believes this?Oh well then, you must just be special. Do you have your own language too?
Of course all things work together for the good of those who love Him, because He works them together for good.
And would you care to explain why you think I'm questioning God's motives by believing He didn't know for certain that it would happen?
Or is it because I said that the God I know would not have done that?
No. It was because Satan is an idiot, and God knew he would get his face shoved in it, again, just like he did the first time. I'm sure God enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself. And GOd also knew that whatever Satan took away, He would replace, threefold.
Wrong.
Abraham was uncertain that Isaac would be born in the first place. God wanted to know if the birth of Isaac had caused Abraham's faith to strengthen, and if he trusted God to fulfill the promise, that another child would be born, if Isaac were dead.
No it doesn't. I believe God was telling the turht when He said, [Jesus]"It never entered my mind..."[/Jesus]
Understanding of what? Nothing in that contradicts what I believe.
Not exactly. But I was mostly pointing out to you that I do not believe God didn't do it, just because I don't believe He didn't know if Abraham would go through with it.
He said, [Jesus]"Now I know..."[/Jesus] You say He already knew.:juggle:
Then you should get to know God better, and take Him at His word, instead of the word of others. Especially not the word of pagans, who worshipped many false gods.
When did I say that?
:doh:
He did it so that all men may choose. I believe in free will, completely. Meaning that I am free to coose, or choose otherwise.
No you didn't. It's a yes or no question, and you have not answered it.I did answer the question. Sorry it didn't fit your "eisegesis".
It's not eisegesis to believe that God meant exactly what He said. It is eisegesis to read into it somehting that's not there, or to deny what is there in favor of current beliefs.
It's in the Bible. Jonah spoke the prophecy God gave him, saying that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days, because of their wickedness. The citizens of Nineveh repented, and God did not destroy the city forty days after the prophecy was made.
From before He decided to create it.
Why did David hope that God would change His mind, if God does not change His mind?
And what makes you think I believe the child was being punished?
The Bible does not speak of God as immutable, or timeless.
What you don't see is me saying what you said I said. But no surprise there. You're doing the same thing with the Bible.
God knew Pharoah's heart. He knew what was in it. But He did not know the specifics of how Pharoah would deny the request to let Israel go, or how many plagues He would have to send before Pharoah finally gave in.
God worked it out so that it would happen. Of course, if you believe that God already knew it was going to happen, then nothing else could hav ahppened anyway.
Wrong. God did not create the concept of time. Man created their own ideas about time, and many of them are false. Only one is true, and the one I believe is the one found in the Bible.
Can you show me in the Bible where it says God created time, or even the concept of time?
He allowed Himself to be limited, because He has the sovereignty to do so. And God becoming man is also another example of a change God made.
You seem to think He is less logical than we are. That would make His ways lower than ours.
Like I said, earlier, it's a yes or no question. You still haven't answered it.Yes I did. Apparently it doesn't conform to your "eisegisis".
Can you do anything other than what God knows you are going to do?
Agape4Robin
Member
Oh, please then, enlighten me. Where may I find this biblical definition?QUOTE=LighthouseAnd here I was, thinking the Biblical definition was the correcte definition. How silly of me.
So, if others believe it, that makes it true? :doh:
So, you possess the knowledge, and would arrogantly state with certainty, of what God would or would not have done? Perhaps it is you who does not know whom you worship. Be careful, lest your own wisdom will lead you astray.
This was not a test of Satan. Satan was only a tool. God does not use us against Satan, it is the other way around, my friend.
Abraham may have been uncertain? Nope. It was Sarah who was uncertain. She laughed when told of the promise that she would bear a son.
Book, chapter and verse, please.
And yet you would condemn God, as being limited, to be justified in your own wisdom.
:bang:
Book, chapter and verse, please!
You should heed your own advice. :thumb:
What "beings" are you referring to?When did I say that?
Nowhere in the bible does it represent God attains knowledge by reasoning, but everywhere as simply knowing. ( paraphrased from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Title: Omniscience.) See Acts 2:23.
This is not a yes or no subject. It was a complex question that required the answer I gave. You only tried to disguise it as a yes or no question, when you in fact know that such an issue as God's omnipotence is as difficult to define as the Trinity.
It's called study.
oly: Study to show yourself approved....not just read it like a Sunday novel.Did you read further than Jonah? If you did, you would find Nineveh's destruction detailed in the books of Nahum and Zephaniah. Just as I said.
Again, book, chapter and verse!
Have you never prayed to God for Him to change your circumstance or circumstances of those close to you? Haven't you hoped that a situation would result in what you wished would happen? David was no different. :nono:
Just pointing out a fact.
See Psalms 93:2 "Your throne is established from of old; You are from everlasting." Meaning: indefinate. The undefinable past, or future.
Be careful when you point a finger like that...there are three more pointing at you!
Where is this documented? Or is this your "eisegisis"?
The way you say this, you make us out to be mere puppets where God pulls the strings.
Genesis 1:3-5. "Then God said, 'Let there be light; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day."
:think: I believe that was the first established 24 hour period. And you know the rest of the story about each successive day.
Genesis 1:14. "Then God said,' Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years."
There you go, proof that God created time!
This does not show any change of God's mind or character.
No hun, that's you!
ok, fine.....I'll bite.....
No.
Are you telling me that Omniscience does not mean "knowing all that is knowable?"Agape4Robin said:
If so, then we disagree on more than what is knowable.
No, but if the Bible says it, it is true.
I quit relying on my own understanding, and open theism is where I was led.
1] I never said it was a rtest of Satan.
2] God does not use Satan against us.
You're right.
But Abraham did try to bargain with God, thinking he might change His mind, on the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah... Genesis 18:23-33
Jeremiah 19:5
Do what?
Is there a problem?
Genesis 22:12
Name the pagan who thought of open theism...
In that instance I was referring to humans, but angels have free will as well. And so do animals. Anything sentient has free will.
Really?
What does that verse prove? Only that God determines things.
I do not think Omniscience, or Trinity are hard to define.
I have studied, and I have never found God saying that He had exhaustive foreknowledge.It's called study.
Did it happen forty days after Jonah's prophecy?
Are you daft? If a decision is not a change, what is?!:bang:
I've never met anyone as stubbornly ignorant as you.
God said that David's child would die. David was not merely praying that circumstances would change, but that God would change His mind!
The child was not being punished. David and Bathsheba were. And the fact that God did not have david condemned to death is definitely a change of mind for God, since He had decreed that adulteres be put to death.
How sure are you that that is what everlasting means?
What are you, a third grader?
Where is it documented that He did?
We're not. That's my point.
No. It is only proof that God created a measurement of time. Not time itself.
I never said it did. Also, God's character never changes. I have never said that it did.
How so? Timelessness is the illogical concept. Not open theism.
Then how is it free will? If you cannot choose otherwise, how is it that your will is free?
Good question! Let me see if I have this straight:Knight said:
God is an all-powerful Being. He created us. Without Him there would be no life, either spiritual or physical. However, the implication of the question is that God did something erroneous in creating us and knows He did. (I trashed the part about Bible prohibition. Silly ploy to disarm opposition.)
Since we didn't ASK to be created (someone else will have to deal with the "logic" of that one), the All-Powerful Being Who did "owes" us something. Sooooo, the Being Who created us incurred some form of "debt" to us for creating us. Got it!
The One Who gave us existence "owes" us for ... ?
Not giving us non-existence (another bit of "logic" I leave to someone else)?
Not giving us eternal reward without effort (ummmm, there's a goodie!)?
Not making us simple slaves to His will (reward without effort again)?
Not giving us license to defy Him without consequences (I think we're getting closer!).
All for now. I leave it to others to contribute ideas as to what this "debt" might be, how it was incurred, and how God can "rehabilitate" Himself (in our eyes, of course).
Last edited:
I'm sure God has a really good idea what choices every man will make because he knows every mans heart. Where does the Bible imply that God knows every detail of every mans choices before they make those choices as though it had already happened.Agape4Robin said:I think you meant exegesis.......
So God is not omniscient? So, Adam caught Him by surprise? He didn't know that humanity would fall? Jesus was a last minute decision? Damage control?
:nono:
Sorry :Brandon: You are wrong about this one. Just because God knows about our choices and decisions before we do, does not negate our free will. He demonstrates it in prophecy. He knew the decisions and choices that Pharoah would make prior to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt. He knew that Joseph's brothers would sell him off into slavery and that during the famine, they would seek help and Joseph would be in a high position in Egypt.....eventually helped his brothers and family. There are many other instances where God demonstrates His omniscience.
However, since we do not know the future, our free will remains intact and God is still omniscient. Nothing catches the Lord by surprise. Not our choices, not our decisions or our actions.
Agape4Robin
Member
A really good idea?deardelmar said:
Ps 147:5 "[God's] understanding is infinite."
Ezekiel 11:5 " Then the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said to me, "Speak! 'Thus says the Lord: "Thus you have said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind."."
Acts 15:18 "Known to God from all eternity are His works."
Romans 11:33 "Oh the depths of His riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out"
1 John 3:20 "For if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things."
Hebrews 4:13 "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give an account."
When I say that God is omniscient, I mean that He knows all that there is to know. There is nothing outside the scope of His conception, understanding or attention. God neither studies or learns for one cannot increase a knowledge that is already insurmountable. Neither does probablity exist for God; all things either are or are not in His perspective. There is no maybe. There are no potentially infinite realities as the faux-hip coffee houses or comic book writers are so fond of speculating. There is one reality and God knows it in its entirety, as it exist by, through and for Him. God is neither surprised by the way the world works itself out, nor shocked by the choices we make. Omniscience is the passive end of His providence- the working out of God's predestined purpose via His sovereignty- in that it is by the means which providence can exist, but neither the engine, nor the fuel that brings about His action.(Quoted from the Blue letter Bible)
The term Omniscience does not occur in scripture either in its nominal or its adjectival form.
In the OT it is expressed with such words as da'ath, binah, tebhunah, chokhmah: also "seeing", and "hearing", "the eye" and "the ear" occur as the figures for the knowledge of God , as "arm, hand or finger" serve to express His power. In the NT are found ginoskein, gnosis, eidenai, and sophia in the same connection.
It extends to all the divisions of time, the past, present and future alike. (Job 14:17, Psalms 56:8, Isaiah 41:22-24, 44:6-8, Jeramiah 1:5, Hosea 13:12, and Malachai 3:16.)
God's Omniscience and Human Free-will
Since scripture includes in the objects of the divine knowledge also the issue of the excercise of free-will on the part of man, the problem arises, how the contingent character of such decisions and the certainty of the divine knowledge can coexist. It is true that the knowledge of God and the puposing will of God are distinct, and that not the former but the latter determines the certainty of the outcome. Consequently, the divine omniscience in such cases adds nor detracts nothing in reguard to the certainty of the event. God's omniscience does not produce but presupposes the certainty by which the problem is raised. At the same time, precisely because omniscience presupposes certainty, it appears to exclude every conception of contingency in the free acts of man, such as would render the latter in their very essence undetermined. The knowledge of the issue must have a fixed point of certainty to terminate upon, if it is to be knowledge at all. Those who make the essence of freedom absolute indeterminateness must, therefore, exempt this class of events from the scope of the divine omniscience. But this is contrary to all the testimony of Scripture, which distinctly makes God's absolute knowledge extend to such acts. (Acts 2:23) It has been attempted to construe a peculiar form of the divine knowledge, which would relate to this class of acts specifically, the so-called scientia media, to be distinguished from the scientia necessaria, which has for its object, God Himself, and the scientia libera which terminates upon the certainties of the world outside of God, as determined by His freewill. This scientia media would then be based on God's foresight of the outcome of the free choice of man.It would involve a knowledge of receptivity, a contribution of the sum total of what God knows derived from observation on His part of the world-process. That is to say that it would be knowledge a posteriori in essence, though not in point of time. It is, however, difficult to see how such a knowledge can be possible in God, when the outcome is psychologically undetermined and undeterminable. The knowledge could originate no sooner than the determination originates through the free decision of man. It would, therefore, necessarily become an a posteriori knowledge in time as well as in essence. The appeal to God's eternity as bringing Him equally near to the future as well as to the present and enabling Him to see the future decisions of man's free will as theough they were present cannot remove this difficulty, for when once the observation and knowledge of God are made dependant on any temporal issue, the divine eternity itself is thereby virtually denied. Nothing remains but to recognize that God's eternal knowledge of the outcome of the freewill choices of man implies that there enters into these choices, notwithstanding their free character, an element of predetermination, to which the knowledge of God can attach itself.
(Quoted from: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. "Omniscience")
It is my understanding, that God knows the choices that I make(even before I do), but in that His knowledge is not preventive or causative. His knowing does not change or cause the outcome of my choices. Although I am a part of the plan of God.
For instance, I know that the sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it or preventing it from rising by knowing it will happen. Likewise, if I place a bowl of ice-cream in front of my child and a bowl of brussel sprouts, I know which will be chosen by him. He will choose the ice cream. My knowing this ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. Knowing that choice has no effect on him when he makes it.
Last edited:
WishI had time to respond in detail right now but I'll try to get to it this PM. I know it is your understanding, that God knows the choices that I make(even before you do)but I don't believe the scriputers you site imply that. It do believe he knows thoose choices as soon as you do.Agape4Robin said: