Global Warming, Is It A Man Made Hoax?

eider

Well-known member
I enjoy your FALLACIOUS arguments.

I did NOT say that it lifted 100% of the world out of poverty.

Without it, we'd all still be riding in horse powered carriages and living by candlelight.

I think your arguments are as daft as you think mine are.

Fossil fuels have not lifted any % of the poor up.
If you like advanced technology then get used to the idea of new battery technology, new magnets for motors, the lot. Oh, and TV and cell phones.

The IC motor will soon be back there with the candles.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I think your arguments are as daft as you think mine are.
So what? We can all see how ridiculously poor your "reasoning skills" are.

Fossil fuels have not lifted any % of the poor up.
That might be the dumbest thing that you've every posted here on TOL.

As I said and you completely ignored, without them we'd all still be getting around on horses and plowing our own fields with oxen.

That you cannot see the advancements in civilization due to these things is spectacularly dumb.

If you like advanced technology then get used to the idea of new battery technology, new magnets for motors, the lot. Oh, and TV and cell phones.
NONE of those things would even be possible with fossil fuels.

The IC motor will soon be back there with the candles.
:rotfl:
 

Truth7t7

New member
I think your arguments are as daft as you think mine are.

Fossil fuels have not lifted any % of the poor up.
If you like advanced technology then get used to the idea of new battery technology, new magnets for motors, the lot. Oh, and TV and cell phones.

The IC motor will soon be back there with the candles.
Fossil fuels brought the world into modern civilization.

Ovens, washing machines, automobiles, to mention a few

Imagine washing clothes for a family of six in 1850, traveling 200 miles in a horse drawn carriage for a week,

A simple water heater, and running water, saved hours of labor a week.

Think of the jobs created making household items, autos.

To say that fossil fuels didn't lift the poor up?

Try telling that to the Arabs, that put the camel's in the zoo, and bought new luxury homes, automobiles, and jet planes.
 

Truth7t7

New member
Fossil fuels brought the world into modern civilization.

Ovens, washing machines, automobiles, to mention a few

Imagine washing clothes for a family of six in 1850, traveling 200 miles in a horse drawn carriage for a week,

A simple water heater, and running water, saved hours of labor a week.

Think of the jobs created making household items, autos.

To say that fossil fuels didn't lift the poor up?

Try telling that to the Arabs, that put the camel's in the zoo, and tents in the trash and bought new luxury homes, automobiles, and jet planes.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Someone doesn't know the difference between weather and climate. Here's a hint from 2019:


Surprise.

Once again... you have absolute proof that this is primarily man-made?

AGAIN.... the earth was very cold at one point in the recent past (within thousands of years), called an "ice age".... and since then it has warmed dramatically. ALL of that happened LONG before humans began burning fossil fuels.

And yet you now claim that it is primarily man-made activities, particularly burning fossil fuels, that are driving the current rise.

I'm not buying your baloney.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
The Science Times

Expert Says the Earth is Actually Cooling

Well. that's testable belief. Let's take a look...

2009 66
2010 72
2011 61
2012 65
2013 68
2014 75
2015 90
2016 102
2017 92
2018 85
2019 93
https://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/t...LB.Ts+dSST.txt

Nope. Your belief is so unlikely as to be statistically unsupportable; average surface temperature rise, over time, has a correlation of 0.8169 . That's a strong positive correlation. The P-value is about .002; the result is significant at p<.01, meaning that there's much less than one chance in 100 that temperatures are not rising, and have risen over the past decade. If you like, I can show you the results for a number of decades. But it will show you pretty much the same things. Want to see?

The notion that the Earth is cooling off, is just absurd. Sorry about your guy. But if you'd like to present his data for these years, we can take a look at them, and see how it goes. What do you have?

Climate change, as you now realize, decisively rebuts those who deny global warming. That is because, while natural climate cycles have already turned from warming to cooling, global temperatures have been rising for decades and have overridden natural forcings. Global temperatures will continue to rise for the forseeable future.

That is what the data tell us.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
A national economy Can't compete globally using (Clean Energy Technologies) that are very expensive, and costly to maintain.

Well, let's take a look at that assumption...

Washington state has the highest percentage of clean electrical energy. It has a rate of 9.82 cents/Kw-hr. The national average is a bit above 13 cents/Kw-hr. Washington state's rates are even lower than states that are fossil fuel energy producers.

So your assumption is clearly wrong.
 

Truth7t7

New member
Well, let's take a look at that assumption...

Washington state has the highest percentage of clean electrical energy. It has a rate of 9.82 cents/Kw-hr. The national average is a bit above 13 cents/Kw-hr. Washington state's rates are even lower than states that are fossil fuel energy producers.

So your assumption is clearly wrong.
Good cherry pick, Washington State has subsidized electricity, and the Bonneville dam on the Columbia River, that supplies 69% of the States power.

Apply you green energy to a State without Hydro power from available water sources, dams.

Paying for Power: Taxpayer-subsidized Electricity in Washington State

By ELAINE R. DAVIS |
POLICY BRIEF

Jan 1, 1997


Introduction

Washington State is unusual in the make up of its electric utility industry. In Washington government-owned utilities like the Bonneville Power Administration (BPA), cities, and public utility districts (PUDs), and rural cooperatives deliver 69 percent of the electric energy consumed by the state's residences and businesses. Investor-owned companies -- Puget Sound Energy (formerly Puget Sound Power and Light), Washington Water Power and Pacific Corp -- deliver the remaining 31 percent.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Good cherry pick, Washington State has subsidized electricity, and the Bonneville dam on the Columbia River, that supplies 69% of the States power.

Apply you green energy to a State without Hydro power from available water sources, dams.

Yes, public utility companies usually can deliver energy at lower costs than for-profit companies. The TVA had the same results. But it's more than just the ownership.

Texas gets about 16% of its electrical power from wind, and it has been successful in holding down electrical costs. All private.
 

Truth7t7

New member
Yes, public utility companies usually can deliver energy at lower costs than for-profit companies. The TVA had the same results. But it's more than just the ownership.

Texas gets about 16% of its electrical power from wind, and it has been successful in holding down electrical costs. All private.
Solar or Wind is expensive to install and maintain, I like how you swept your cherry picked Hydro powered, subsidized Washington State under the carpet.

Try doing a cost comparison on installed and maintained power sources, combined cycle fossil, to Solar, Wind?

Given a State and their energy cost dosent show the factual truth of this comparison, and you know it.

Big Smiles!
 

Right Divider

Body part
Yes, public utility companies usually can deliver energy at lower costs than for-profit companies.
No, they cannot. The PUBLIC utilities are subsidized by the tax payers. The costs are buried and are always MORE.

PUBLIC anything is never... I repeat NEVER as efficient as for-profit companies.
PUBLIC entities are never... I repeat NEVER held accountable for the costs the way that for-profit companies are.
 

Truth7t7

New member
I agree, in California they installed like 25,000 megawatts of solar fields, all on the taxpayers backs



Obama clean energy loans leave taxpayers in $2.2 billion hole

Nearly $1 billion in loans have already defaulted under the Energy Department program, which included the infamous Solyndra stimulus project and dozens of other green technology programs the Obama administration has approved, totaling nearly about $30 billion in taxpayer backing, ...
By Stephen Dinan - The Washington Times - Monday, April 27, 2015

Taxpayers are on the hook for more than $2.2 billion in expected costs from the federal government’s energy loan guarantee programs, according to a new audit Monday that suggests the controversial projects may not pay for themselves, as officials had promised.

Nearly $1 billion in loans have already defaulted under the Energy Department program, which included the infamous Solyndra stimulus project and dozens of other green technology programs the Obama administration has approved, totaling nearly about $30 billion in taxpayer backing, the Government Accountability Office reported in its audit.

Ad

The hefty $2.2 billion price tag is actually an improvement over initial estimates, which found the government was poised to face $4 billion in losses from the loan guarantees. But as the projects have come to fruition, they’ve performed better, leaving taxpayers with a shrinking — though still sizable — liability.

“As of November 2014, DOE estimates the credit subsidy cost of the loans and loan guarantees in its portfolio — that is, the total expected net cost over the life of the loans — to be $2.21 billion, including $807 million for loans that have defaulted,” the GAO said in its report to Congress.

The green program loan guarantees were created in a 2005 law and boosted by the 2009 stimulus. The first applications were approved in 2009, and through 2014 the Obama administration had issued some 38 loans and guarantees, covering 34 projects ranging from nuclear power plants to fuel-efficient vehicles to solar panels and wind-generation technology.

The Energy Department said it considers the loan program a success.

“We believe that the data presented demonstrates that the department’s Loan Programs Office is achieving its statutory mission to accelerate the deployment of innovative clean energy projects and advanced vehicle manufacturing facilities in the U.S., while being a responsible steward of taxpayer dollars,” Peter W. Davidson, executive director of the loan programs, said in an official reply to the GAO.

Mr. Davidson said the expected loss to taxpayers has dropped some $2.28 billion since the initial estimates, and he predicted that the cost will continue to drop as projects mature and repay their loans.

But most of that improvement came from one green vehicle loan where the project’s credit rating improved dramatically, making it far less likely the project would default. Another green vehicle program, Tesla Motors Inc., has already repaid its loan in full, helping the government’s balance sheet.

Indeed, leaving the vehicle loan program aside, the loan guarantees office is deeper in the red than it was initially, by nearly $500 million, chiefly due to defaulted loans.

Across the entire loan program there have been five defaulted loans: two solar panel manufacturers, Solyndra Inc. and Abound Manufacturing Solar LLC; two green vehicle programs, Fisker Automotive Inc. and the Vehicle Production Group LLC; and one energy storage project, Beacon Power.

GAO investigators said those technology projects were risky from the start, and each had a shaky credit rating. By contrast, the more than 20 projects up and running that focused on energy generation or transmission have done well, with not a single default, the investigators said.

GAO investigators have been warning for nearly a decade that the loan programs are unlikely to pay for themselves overall.

From the beginning, the investigators said because companies knew more about their projects and their own creditworthiness, they had an advantage over the Energy Department. The GAO said the companies were more likely to accept a federal loan guarantee if the Obama administration underestimated the actual risk of a project, leaving taxpayers on the hook.

Most of the loans are still in their infancy, but some are paying off.

As of the end of 2014, the projects in the program have repaid $3.6 billion in principal and another $810 million in interest. The Energy Department says it expects, over the life of the loans, to earn $5 billion in total interest — though that has to be offset against the costs the federal government incurs for borrowing to finance its spending, so that’s not pure profit.

In addition to the risky loans, the program isn’t collecting enough money in fees to cover the costs of administering itself, GAO investigators said, calculating that less than half of the $312 million in administrative costs has been offset by fees.

Part of the problem is that the loan office didn’t even have sufficient staffing until 2011, which meant it wasn’t able to properly assess administrative fees. That problem has been fixed, and the program is getting better at matching fees with costs, the GAO said.

“At this time, it is too early to tell whether [the Energy Department‘s] actions will result in sufficient funds to offset [the loan guarantee program’s] future administrative costs,” investigators said.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Boy, that "world climate is cooling" story changed in a hurry, didn't it? :chuckle:

The ongoing warming,driven mostly by human-produced carbon dioxide, has accelerated in the past few years. It's not clear how far it's going to go.
 

rocketman

Resident Rocket Surgeon
Hall of Fame
I think your arguments are as daft as you think mine are.

Fossil fuels have not lifted any % of the poor up.
If you like advanced technology then get used to the idea of new battery technology, new magnets for motors, the lot. Oh, and TV and cell phones.

The IC motor will soon be back there with the candles.

All technology that was derived to date was derived by the use of fossil fuels...you really are an ignoramus aren't you. How do you think they mine the rare earth metals to make the magnets, or the rare earths that produce batteries for "Green Energy" genius? That would be the use of fossil fuels... Fossil fuels are exactly what brought humankind to where they are today, and has furthered the technology of the entire planet to even get the batteries & magnets of which you speak. To even think that fossil fuels have not lifted humankind as a species up collectively is absolutely absurd. Think before you speak and you won't sound so stupid.
 

eider

Well-known member
So what? We can all see how ridiculously poor your "reasoning skills" are.


That might be the dumbest thing that you've every posted here on TOL.

As I said and you completely ignored, without them we'd all still be getting around on horses and plowing our own fields with oxen.

That you cannot see the advancements in civilization due to these things is spectacularly dumb.


NONE of those things would even be possible with fossil fuels.


:rotfl:

Still chucking your mucky insults about?
You can't win debates with your primitive jibes.

Great advancements in civilisation?
Search for Sir David Attenborough and see or read his predictions. Learn something today.
 

eider

Well-known member
All technology that was derived to date was derived by the use of fossil fuels...you really are an ignoramus aren't you. How do you think they mine the rare earth metals to make the magnets, or the rare earths that produce batteries for "Green Energy" genius? That would be the use of fossil fuels... Fossil fuels are exactly what brought humankind to where they are today, and has furthered the technology of the entire planet to even get the batteries & magnets of which you speak. To even think that fossil fuels have not lifted humankind as a species up collectively is absolutely absurd. Think before you speak and you won't sound so stupid.

Another moron who thinks that chucking insults can win his point of view over.
I can usually put up with creeps throwing insults but sometimes.....

Now, your lesson for today is simple, it's KISS basic..... Keep it simple.

Just because we have used fossil fuels in vast quantities for hundreds of years doesn't mean we should keep doing so.

Off you go. See ya later. Much later.
 

eider

Well-known member
Fossil fuels brought the world into modern civilization.

Ovens, washing machines, automobiles, to mention a few
True

washing clothes for a family of six in 1850, traveling 200 miles in a horse drawn carriage for a week,

A simple water heater, and running water, saved hours of labor a week.
Great inventions.

Think of the jobs created making household items, autos.
Yes.

To say that fossil fuels didn't lift the poor up?
Ask the billions of poor folks in the world about that.

Try telling that to the Arabs, that put the camel's in the zoo, and bought new luxury homes, automobiles, and jet planes.

I listened......
So how does that history guide you nvto believing that we have to continue burning fossil fuels at the present rate?
You've mentioned progress and I just want to know why you don't want to progress further now?
IT has changed our world amazingly. We don't need to look back in order to move forwards, surely?
 
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