Free Will

Epoisses

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So what exactly is your point ? God told Adam not to eat off of the tree and he disobeyed God and made that choice to do so. Adam's choice to disobey God was probably based on the fact he loved Eve but he still made that choice and disobeyed God. So what exactly is your POINT ?

The actions of Eve in eating the forbidden fruit were the results of her disbelief in God's word.

The actions of Adam in eating the forbidden fruit were partly out of love for his wife and also disbelief in God's word.

I didn't use the word choice one time!
 

JudgeRightly

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We are all born sinners because of our father Adam's sin. You're a sinner, you were born one and you'll die as one.

I see...

So when Israel had a saying, "The father eats sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge," God wasn't angry about it? No, God was furious at His people for saying it...

*The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, *“What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?*“As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall [RED]no longer[/RED] use this proverb in Israel.*“Behold, all souls are Mine;The soul of the fatherAs well as the soul of the son is Mine;The soul who sins shall die. - Ezekiel 18:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel18:1-4&version=NKJV

*In those days they shall say no more:‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’*But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. - Jeremiah 31:29-30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah31:29-30&version=NKJV

He tells them to never use that phrase again, so strongly does he hate it, because it says that God is unjust.

*“Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin. - Deuteronomy 24:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy24:16&version=NKJV

Spoiler
*The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, *“What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?*“As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.*“Behold, all souls are Mine;The soul of the fatherAs well as the soul of the son is Mine;The soul who sins shall die.*But if a man is justAnd does what is lawful and right;*If he has not eaten on the mountains,Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,Nor approached a woman during her impurity;*If he has not oppressed anyone,But has restored to the debtor his pledge;Has robbed no one by violence,But has given his bread to the hungryAnd covered the naked with clothing;*If he has not exacted usuryNor taken any increase,But has withdrawn his hand from iniquityAnd executed true judgment between man and man;*If he has walked in My statutesAnd kept My judgments faithfully—He is just;He shall surely live!”Says the Lord God.*“If he begets a son who is a robberOr a shedder of blood,Who does any of these things*And does none of those duties,But has eaten on the mountainsOr defiled his neighbor’s wife;*If he has oppressed the poor and needy,Robbed by violence,Not restored the pledge,Lifted his eyes to the idols,Or committed abomination;*If he has exacted usuryOr taken increase—Shall he then live?He shall not live!If he has done any of these abominations,He shall surely die;His blood shall be upon him.*“If, however, he begets a sonWho sees all the sins which his father has done,And considers but does not do likewise;*Who has not eaten on the mountains,Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;*Has not oppressed anyone,Nor withheld a pledge,Nor robbed by violence,But has given his bread to the hungryAnd covered the naked with clothing;*Who has withdrawn his hand from the poorAnd not received usury or increase,But has executed My judgmentsAnd walked in My statutes—He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;He shall surely live!*“As for his father,Because he cruelly oppressed,Robbed his brother by violence,And did what is not good among his people,Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.*“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. *The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.*“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. *None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. *Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?*“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.*“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? *When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. *Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. *Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. *Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?*“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. *Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? *For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” - Ezekiel 18:1-32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel18:1-32&version=NKJV


So, what you said, about innocent babies inheriting the sin of their fathers? Yeah, that's refuted by the Bible. You are saying "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge."

"As I live," says the Lord, "you shall no longer use this proverb."
 

Epoisses

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I see...

So when Israel had a saying, "The father eats sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge," God wasn't angry about it? No, God was furious at His people for saying it...

*The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, *“What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?*“As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall [RED]no longer[/RED] use this proverb in Israel.*“Behold, all souls are Mine;The soul of the fatherAs well as the soul of the son is Mine;The soul who sins shall die. - Ezekiel 18:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel18:1-4&version=NKJV

*In those days they shall say no more:‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’*But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. - Jeremiah 31:29-30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah31:29-30&version=NKJV

He tells them to never use that phrase again, so strongly does he hate it, because it says that God is unjust.

*“Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin. - Deuteronomy 24:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy24:16&version=NKJV

Spoiler
*The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, *“What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?*“As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.*“Behold, all souls are Mine;The soul of the fatherAs well as the soul of the son is Mine;The soul who sins shall die.*But if a man is justAnd does what is lawful and right;*If he has not eaten on the mountains,Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,Nor approached a woman during her impurity;*If he has not oppressed anyone,But has restored to the debtor his pledge;Has robbed no one by violence,But has given his bread to the hungryAnd covered the naked with clothing;*If he has not exacted usuryNor taken any increase,But has withdrawn his hand from iniquityAnd executed true judgment between man and man;*If he has walked in My statutesAnd kept My judgments faithfully—He is just;He shall surely live!”Says the Lord God.*“If he begets a son who is a robberOr a shedder of blood,Who does any of these things*And does none of those duties,But has eaten on the mountainsOr defiled his neighbor’s wife;*If he has oppressed the poor and needy,Robbed by violence,Not restored the pledge,Lifted his eyes to the idols,Or committed abomination;*If he has exacted usuryOr taken increase—Shall he then live?He shall not live!If he has done any of these abominations,He shall surely die;His blood shall be upon him.*“If, however, he begets a sonWho sees all the sins which his father has done,And considers but does not do likewise;*Who has not eaten on the mountains,Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;*Has not oppressed anyone,Nor withheld a pledge,Nor robbed by violence,But has given his bread to the hungryAnd covered the naked with clothing;*Who has withdrawn his hand from the poorAnd not received usury or increase,But has executed My judgmentsAnd walked in My statutes—He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;He shall surely live!*“As for his father,Because he cruelly oppressed,Robbed his brother by violence,And did what is not good among his people,Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.*“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. *The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.*“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. *None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. *Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?*“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.*“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? *When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. *Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. *Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. *Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?*“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. *Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? *For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” - Ezekiel 18:1-32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel18:1-32&version=NKJV


So, what you said, about innocent babies inheriting the sin of their fathers? Yeah, that's refuted by the Bible. You are saying "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge."

"As I live," says the Lord, "you shall no longer use this proverb."

I asked if you were a sinner? That's a yes or a no question. Come on proud Christian are you a sinner or not?
 

dodge

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The actions of Eve in eating the forbidden fruit were the results of her disbelief in God's word.

The actions of Adam in eating the forbidden fruit were partly out of love for his wife and also disbelief in God's word.

I didn't use the word choice one time!

lol, so they both disobeyed God without making the CHOICE to do so according to you. Exactly how did they do EXACTLY what God had commanded not to do without making the CHOICE to do so were they in a trance ?

If they did not chose to disobey God how exactly do you explain that they were even responsible for disobeying God ?

God gave Adam and Eve a responsibility or a command to not eat off of a certain tree and they did the opposite.How do you explain their disobedience without them making a CHOICE to do so ? You are ignoring part of the process of RESPONSIBILITY of our actions. Sin is always a choice one makes to disobey God.

I agree an UN-saved person could make a choice based on their fallen nature caused by the fall in the garden, but scripture teaches that those in Christ has the help and ability from God to NOT have to make the choice to sin.
 
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JudgeRightly

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I asked if you were a sinner? That's a yes or a no question. Come on proud Christian are you a sinner or not?
Maybe you should pay attention to which of your posts I was quoting when replying to my posts.
 

Truster

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The actions of Eve in eating the forbidden fruit were the results of her disbelief in God's word.

The actions of Adam in eating the forbidden fruit were partly out of love for his wife and also disbelief in God's word.

I didn't use the word choice one time!

The actions of Adam were out of love for his woman and the firm knowledge, trust, that the Eternal Almighty could put the matter right. He emphasised this by declaring the woman shall be called Eve because she was the mother of all living. This was directly after Adam was told he would return to dust.Gen 3:19,20. It was as if Adam was saying, my Father can do anything!
 

Epoisses

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lol, so they both disobeyed God without making the CHOICE to do so according to you. Exactly how did they do EXACTLY what God had commanded them to do without making the CHOICE to do so were they in a trance ?

If they did not chose to disobey God how exactly do you explain that they were even responsible for disobeying God ?

God gave Adam and Eve a responsibility or a command to not eat off of a certain tree and they did the opposite.How do you explain their disobedience without them making a CHOICE to do so ? You are ignoring part of the process of RESPONSIBILITY of our actions. Sin is always a choice one makes to disobey God.

I agree an UN-saved person could make a choice based on their fallen nature caused by the fall in the garden, but scripture teaches that those in Christ has the help and ability from God to NOT have to make the choice to sin.

Faith and unbelief don't even come into the equation for you which tells me you are nothing but a carnal Christian who lives by his works of the flesh. You people are a dime a dozen these days.
 

dodge

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Faith and unbelief don't even come into the equation for you which tells me you are nothing but a carnal Christian who lives by his works of the flesh. You people are a dime a dozen these days.

EXACTLY what you exposed yourself to be a troll for UN-truth. It is pretty obvious you follow YOU and not God nor scripture.

Just so you know your choices are based on who you believe and follow. Looks like you are following you and we will see how that works out for you in eternity.
 

JudgeRightly

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Time will tell if you're a saint or not. Do you want to know the odds of a choice Christian being a saint are?

Are you really calling into question my faith in God?

If someone has repented of their sins and believed in Christ, they are a Christian. That's what the Bible says.

*For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, *not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV
 

JudgeRightly

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The actions of Adam were out of love for his woman and the firm knowledge, trust, that the Eternal Almighty could put the matter right. He emphasised this by declaring the woman shall be called Eve because she was the mother of all living. This was directly after Adam was told he would return to dust.Gen 3:19,20. It was as if Adam was saying, my Father can do anything!

Does love cause people to sin? or does lust?

Adam did love Eve, but that's not why he ate the fruit. He ate the fruit because Eve told him it was good to eat.

If Adam would have loved Eve, and loved God, enough, he would have told her that what she did was wrong, and that she should repent, and not ate of it himself.
 

Nang

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Does love cause people to sin? or does lust?

Adam did love Eve, but that's not why he ate the fruit. He ate the fruit because Eve told him it was good to eat.

If Adam would have loved Eve, and loved God, enough, he would have told her that what she did was wrong, and that she should repent, and not ate of it himself.

Adam disobeyed God, failed to correct and protect his wife, caused all his future progeny to inherit death and corruption, and brought a curse upon all God's creation.

What a guy . . .

No man has ever sinned so badly, with so much accountability and responsibility, as Adam was given by God!
 

dodge

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Adam disobeyed God, failed to correct and protect his wife, caused all his future progeny to inherit death and corruption, and brought a curse upon all God's creation.

What a guy . . .

No man has ever sinned so badly, with so much accountability and responsibility, as Adam was given by God!

In reality Adam was no different than anyone else who would have been in the garden ,I believe.

I have heard it argued that Adam sinned shortly after placed in the garden, which I believe is wrong. Adam was in the garden long enough to name all the animals so to me it looks like Adam could have been in the garden a very long time before he disobeyed God.

It is easy to form an opinion on this side of the event;however, it is always easy to say I would have done differently when we were NOT there.
 

JudgeRightly

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In reality Adam was no different than anyone else who would have been in the garden ,I believe.

I have heard it argued that Adam sinned shortly after placed in the garden, which I believe is wrong. Adam was in the garden long enough to name all the animals so to me it looks like Adam could have been in the garden a very long time before he disobeyed God.

It is easy to form an opinion on this side of the event;however, it is always easy to say I would have done differently when we were NOT there.
Actually, the longest man could have been in the garden before sinning would be about a week. There's a bit of math to it, but it has to do with the number 13...

Pastor Enyart delves into it a bit in his Bible Study called Genesis Creation.
 

dodge

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Actually, the longest man could have been in the garden before sinning would be about a week. There's a bit of math to it, but it has to do with the number 13...

Pastor Enyart delves into it a bit in his Bible Study called Genesis Creation.

You believe Adam named every animal in a week ?

I went and read some of Pastor Enyart's paper on when and how long before Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and no scriptural evidence exists for how long they were in the garden. I guess if God wanted us to know that He would have put it in scripture.
 
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