Free Will

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I never completely read all those, and don't care to.

I don't belong to any religious organization, but I am most definitely a member of the Church which Christ gave His Life for Eph 5:25: A Sheep of His John 10:11, 15.

The invisible church is made up of many from many walks of life. I do not count you as excluded from it.

I cannot help that you shut your eyes to the scriptures I posted. Doctrines of men profit nothing. The Scriptures are all I and many others here need.

Now... watch how houses built on sand crumble as waves crash in.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The authority of the scriptures alone is what I adhere to.

You pick and choose which verses from the Scriptures you will believe and which ones you will not believe. Do you believe what is written here?:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).​

 

[Nanja]

The invisible church is made up of many from many walks of life. I do not count you as excluded from it.

The invisible Church is the Elect of God Eph. 1:4-11.

The only portion of humanity which Christ gave His Life for.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The invisible Church is the Elect of God Eph. 1:4-11.

The only portion of humanity which Christ gave His Life for.

No,

Not in your clearly asserted context bathed in Calvin's Institutes, The Westminster Confessions of Faith and many commentaries.

1st John 2:27

 

[Nanja]

You pick and choose which verses from the Scriptures you will believe and which ones you will not believe. Do you believe what is written here?:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).​

No I don't.

The word man is not even in the original.

Christ did not die for every individual, that's why every individual shall not be saved.

For many shall end up in the second death:

Rev. 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[freelight]

Back to Adam & Eve.....

Back to Adam & Eve.....

Where did that scripture say that God gave man a freewill? I'm waiting !

Freedom of choice is a feature of our very existence, I don't need to quote a chapter and verse for that to be a fact of life. That the scriptures are FULL of instances and events where human beings are given opportunities to CHOOSE between any number of options or just two, life or death, is also a fact that any half-baked bible scholar has knowledge of. So, to engage your inquiry on this point is moot if not ridiculous. The question I ask you about the very first humans (so the story goes) is even more important.

Adding from my previous posts here & here which addresses the fundamentals at hand on the subject,...you also haven't addressed the simple question of Adam & Eve having 'freedom of choice'. You see I'm proposing an inquiry from the Beginning, just to cover all bases.

As stated earlier,..we can simply define 'free will' as 'freedom of choice', unless we qualify or define our terms otherwise. The question for you again, is did Adam and Eve have any 'freedom of choice' whatsoever in their respecting the instructions that God gave them? Did they have the freedom to disobey, as well as obey? If God gave them a commandment or instruction, gave them any kind of direction whatsoever,...doesn't this indicate that they have the ability to follow or NOT follow those directions? So, you're stuck with Adam & Eve as the first example of humans having an engagement with God.On a side note,...I fully CHOSE to reply to you. I could let this go, and attend to other threads or projects I have going. I can choose from any number of options. You see, I have a CHOICE - Isn't that awesome? - this 'choice' also goes for having a hand in determining my own destiny, within the space and time 'God' allows, at any point in space or time.

Sure,...all choices are allowed within divine providence (nothing can exist outside of God), and all decisions have their consequences (law of karma). You reap what you sow (in time and eternity). You have response-ability. - if you are not able to choose for yourself, you are not responsible for any of your actions. You are devoid of any creative license or freedom. If you cannot make a choice, you cannot even engage in a 'covenant' with 'God', much less another person.

 

[Nanja]

You pick and choose which verses from the Scriptures you will believe and which ones you will not believe. Do you believe what is written here?:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).​

Heb. 2:9 doesn't mean Christ died for all individuals of mankind without exception, but it means all of the Elect of God.

For they were the only portion of mankind that was Promised Salvation.

Is. 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

And that has nothing to do with ethnicity Rom. 2:29 but whom God has chosen in Christ, the Israel of God Is. 49:3 to have remission of sins before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-7.

But the rest of humanity shall end up in the second death Rev. 21:8!

 

[JudgeRightly]

Isaiah 1:18a, "'Come, let us reason together,' says the Lord"

Nanja, come, let us reason together about the Bible and what is taught therein. I'm willing to discuss in detail what the Bible says about issues such as free will vs predestination, but in order for there to be discussion, there has to be reciprocation.

So to start, Does the Bible overall teach that God is good or evil? Good, right?

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Heb. 2:9 doesn't mean Christ died for all individuals of mankind without exception, but it means all of the Elect of God.

For they were the only portion of mankind that was Promised Salvation.

Is. 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

And that has nothing to do with ethnicity Rom. 2:29 but whom God has chosen in Christ, the Israel of God Is. 49:3 to have remission of sins before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-7.

But the rest of humanity shall end up in the second death Rev. 21:8!

Nanja, Do you care to reply? or is my post too offensive to you and your dogma?

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[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I never completely read all those, and don't care to.

The authority of the scriptures alone is what I adhere to.

2 Tim. 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I don't belong to any religious organization, but I am most definitely a member of the Church which Christ gave His Life for Eph 5:25: A Sheep of His John 10:11, 15.

You pick and choose which verses from the Scriptures you will believe and which ones you will not believe. Do you believe what is written here?:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).​

In full disclosure, it is actually the authority of the Westminster Confessions of faith, Calvin's Institutes and Reformed commentary that they hold in authority.

And...... That scripture is superb! Jerry, you outdid yourself that time!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Heb. 2:9 doesn't mean Christ died for all individuals of mankind without exception, but it means all of the Elect of God.

So the author of Hebrews just forgot to make that point so what he wrote shoud be edited in the following way?:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man who is among the elect" (Heb.2:9).​

By using your method a person can make the Scriptures say anything he wants it to say, no matter if it is the truth or not!

 

[TulipBee]

Let's go into detail in regard to the god which the Calvinists worship. Here we read that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing the very things which He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes, "As the Westminster Divines express it, 'We are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good.' This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1991], 75).

The God which I worship is not a tyrant but the god you worship makes man so that he is wholly inclined to all evil and then punishes them for doing the very thing which your god designed them to do!

Only one God, silly

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

So the author of Hebrews just forgot to make that point so what he wrote shoud be edited in the following way?:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man who is among the elect" (Heb.2:9).​

By using your method a person can make the Scriptures say anything he wants it to say, no matter if it is the truth or not!

If only Paul had the reformists to help him get it right.

 

[beloved57]

Freedom of choice is a feature of our very existence, I don't need to quote a chapter and verse for that to be a fact of life. That the scriptures are FULL of instances and events where human beings are given opportunities to CHOOSE between any number of options or just two, life or death, is also a fact that any half-baked bible scholar has knowledge of. So, to engage your inquiry on this point is moot if not ridiculous. The question I ask you about the very first humans (so the story goes) is even more important.

Adding from my previous posts here & here which addresses the fundamentals at hand on the subject,...you also haven't addressed the simple question of Adam & Eve having 'freedom of choice'. You see I'm proposing an inquiry from the Beginning, just to cover all bases.

As stated earlier,..we can simply define 'free will' as 'freedom of choice', unless we qualify or define our terms otherwise. The question for you again, is did Adam and Eve have any 'freedom of choice' whatsoever in their respecting the instructions that God gave them? Did they have the freedom to disobey, as well as obey? If God gave them a commandment or instruction, gave them any kind of direction whatsoever,...doesn't this indicate that they have the ability to follow or NOT follow those directions? So, you're stuck with Adam & Eve as the first example of humans having an engagement with God.On a side note,...I fully CHOSE to reply to you. I could let this go, and attend to other threads or projects I have going. I can choose from any number of options. You see, I have a CHOICE - Isn't that awesome? - this 'choice' also goes for having a hand in determining my own destiny, within the space and time 'God' allows, at any point in space or time.

Sure,...all choices are allowed within divine providence (nothing can exist outside of God), and all decisions have their consequences (law of karma). You reap what you sow (in time and eternity). You have response-ability. - if you are not able to choose for yourself, you are not responsible for any of your actions. You are devoid of any creative license or freedom. If you cannot make a choice, you cannot even engage in a 'covenant' with 'God', much less another person.

Still no scripture!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Still no scripture!

 

[freelight]

Choosing against sin................

Choosing against sin................

beloved57 wrote:

Still no scripture!

The Question about Adam & Eve remains - that's in scripture.

Here is another instance from Genesis 4 for your consideration -

Cain and Abel

4 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.” 2 Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground. 4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and for his offering; 5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. 6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

-NASB

Now notice the Lord's words to Cain,....that even though sin or the propensity to sin is within you, or capable of overpowering you,...you must master it. - other translations say "you must rule over it"; "you must overcome it". Doesn't this indicate that we have the freedom to choose NOT to sin? - that we can overcome sinful tendencies by the power to choose what is right/good. The LXX has a different rendering of this verse, so there may be some debate about the true translation here, but most English translations give the sense afforded above. We might also remind you that the teaching of 'Original Sin' is entirely foreign in orthodox Jewish thought, scripture and theology. See: Does Judaism believe in Original Sin?

There goes the "T" in TULIP

 

[freelight]

Choose who you will serve.................

Choose who you will serve.................

Joshua 24:15

:thumb:

And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

-NKJV

The above is in the 'scriptures'

 

[freelight]

Only one God, silly

One True and Universal 'God' or Deity, yes. However, there may be many distortions, mischaracterizations and imperfect representations of this 'God'. Hence, there being different 'versions' of 'God'.

 

[Nanja]

So the author of Hebrews just forgot to make that point so what he wrote shoud be edited in the following way?:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man who is among the elect" (Heb.2:9).​

By using your method a person can make the Scriptures say anything he wants it to say, no matter if it is the truth or not!

The biblical hermeneutic is to compare scripture with scripture 1 Cor. 2:13.

If Christ died for all of mankind then all would have been chosen to have remission of sins and be saved, but that's not the case. For God has unconditionally chosen a set number of people to be condemned for their sins before they were ever born Rom. 9:11.

Scriptures tell us the Election of Grace is only a remnant of mankind Rom. 11:5-6: Christ's Sheep John 10:11,15.

But the goats were already condemned and shall go into the second death Mat. 25:41; Rev. 20:14; 21:8.

That's Limited Atonement.

 

[TulipBee]

One True and Universal 'God' or Deity, yes. However, there may be many distortions, mischaracterizations and imperfect representations of this 'God'. Hence, there being different 'versions' of 'God'.

More like the God the Bible describes

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Didn't answer the question.

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You dont like the answer. God is the initiator. He is the gift giver. But just like you dont force gifts upon others; either does God. No human is better than anyone, but all have unimaginable worth and value as proven at Calvary. Some just in humility take the gift that's offered. Nothing can make anyone better than anyone else. Calvary sets the bar. Humility recognizes the equality of God's creations.