Forgiving Others

[PureX]

Aparently, Jesus contradicted himself. So what now? Knight is picking the quotes that support his own philosophy of life, and others pick the opposing quotes that support theirs. And how would we know which is right? Do we count up the quotes and see which philosophy has more supporting quotes? Interesting. This must pose quite a dilemma for those who believe that the bible is perfect and inerrant in every word and phrase.

For myself, I will stick with what I believe to be the essence of Jesus' message - that God loves us and forgives us and wants us to love and forgive each other in turn. And that as God's love is NOT conditional, neither should ours be, if possible. So no repentances or apologies are required.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight

Freak... everytime Jesus spoke about forgiveness He didn't need to restate every principle regarding appropriate forgiveness.

Jesus was quite clear:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Just because you have a problem with His words doesn't mean it's my problem. Quite the contrary, it's your problem.

Ephesians 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.



OK, so we are to forgive in the same manner hat Christ forgave us.

Remind me again... was that WITH or WITHOUT repentance?

Don't be silly, Knight we should forgive when there is repentance and when there isn't. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't forgive those who repent. But you have no right to say we can't forgive when there is no repentance.

Do you remember, Knight, when Jesus came to Jericho to a man who was accused of stealing? Perhaps it was legal stealing, but it was still stealing. He had over taxed the people. Jesus looked into the face of Zacchaeus and said, "I forgive you." There was a difference in Zacchaeus' personality after that. He said to the crowd, "If I have stolen from any of you, I am willing to restore it four fold and half of my goods I will give to the poor." There was a real change in his person when he began to walk and to live in Jesus Christ. He became a forgiven child of God.

Homework for Knight:

Was Jesus mistaken when He asked for us to forgive one another regardless of repentance...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.


The context is clear that when you're in prayer to God you should possess a attitude of forgiveness not unforgiveness and forgive even when there is no repentance...

 

[Yorzhik]

Knight: right-on brother!

P.S. this might be an all-time-great thread

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Knight

In your opinion.... what was Jesus REALLY saying when He said....
"......and if he repents, forgive him."?????

Makes you wonder why he stuck, "if he repents" in there in the first place. He could have easily worded it, "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him... and forgive him." Apparently Jesus thought it important enough to stick that little important piece of info in there.
Wonder what he wanted them to do if he didn't repent? :think:

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

Normally, I would agree with Knight and Poly on their position. "No. You should only forgive the repentent."

But, in a case, where you're anger is affecting your life, you need to forgive the person for your own sanity.

:thumb:


I agree and have experienced this myself.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Poly

Makes you wonder why he stuck, "if he repents" in there in the first place. He could have easily worded it, "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him... and forgive him."

...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

This is in the context of when you're praying by yourself, Poly. Your blindness speaks volumes. :down:

 

[Poly]

Freak, why did Christ stick the "if he repents" part in there?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Poly

Freak, why did Christ stick the "if he repents" part in there?

Why are you having trouble understanding?

We must forgive those who repent and those who don't repent. We should possess a forgiving attitude. Harboring unforgiveness is a problem. In fact Jesus tells us that when we pray we should forgive and there is no mention that we should wait for some repentance...

...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by PureX

Aparently, Jesus contradicted himself. So what now? Knight is picking the quotes that support his own philosophy of life, and others pick the opposing quotes that support theirs.

Actually that isn't true.

Jesus isn't contradicting Himself at all!

Jesus explained how to forgive (upon repentance).

And then later He simply tells people to forgive.

He doesn't need to re-explain the way to forgive every time He tells people that they should forgive.

Think of it this way....
The boss at Taco bell explains to the employees how to make a taco. Later he tells them to make tacos when the orders are coming in. The boss doesn't need to re-explain making a taco every time he asks his employees to make a taco.

No contradiction in that whatsoever.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by SOTK4ever

:thumb:


I agree and have experienced this myself.

Anecdotal evidence is interesting, I have some myself!

And I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence is very different from yours.

That's why "The battle of the anecdotal evidence" is futile.

But I do appreciate your input.

I would also go so far as to say I have often forgiven without repentance, especially when the nature of the sin against me is very minor.

But what about when the sin is monumental?

Should we really forgive the unrepentant molester of our children? Is that healthy for us? For our children? And for the molester himself? Isn't the goal to adhere to God's will? God is looking for repentance why should we work against God's will?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight


Think of it this way....
The boss at Taco bell explains to the employees how to make a taco. Later he tells them to make tacos when the orders are coming in. The boss doesn't need to re-explain making a taco every time he asks his employees to make a taco.

No contradiction in that whatsoever.

Anecdotal evidence is interesting, I have some myself!

And I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence is very different from yours.

That's why "The battle of the anecdotal evidence" is futile.

But I do appreciate your input.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight


I would also go so far as to say I have often forgiven without repentance, especially when the nature of the sin against me is very minor.

Hmmm. That's good because that's exactly what Jesus calls us to do--forgive.

...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

But what about when the sin is monumental?

Should we really forgive the unrepentant molester of our children? Is that healthy for us?

Psalms 103 speaks of God not treating us as "our sins deserve." This is called mercy, grace. This is what God has called us to...

Consider the words of Jesus...
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that.

God is looking for repentance why should we work against God's will?

Of course God is looking for repentance but even before there's repentance there is love for the unrepentant. John 3:16-17 would be good place to start for ya.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak
...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Some people do not forgive those who have already repented and that is wrong.

Therefore.... there is every reason to believe that Jesus was referring to those that continued to "hold" an offense against another when they shouldn't have in the verse you reference Mark 11:25

So what is the lesson?

Forgive those that repent!

And those that do not forgive when repentance is made are sinning in and of themselves!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak

Of course God is looking for repentance but even before there's repentance there is love for the unrepentant. John 3:16-17 would be good place to start for ya.

And true love is not always manifested as acceptance, forgiveness and mercy is it?

For if God is love and love were pure acceptance and forgiveness then no one would go to hell would they?

God is love indeed. But God displays true love! True love abhors evil and clings to what is good.

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by Knight No contradiction in that whatsoever.

Well it certainly looks contradictory to me.

"If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him."

Perhaps now would be a good time to remember that Jesus did not write these, but various unknown writers did, and that they were only copying and interpreting it from previous texts.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight

Some people do not forgive those who have already repented and that is wrong.

Therefore.... there is every reason to believe that Jesus was referring to those that continued to "hold" an offense against another when they shouldn't have in the verse you reference Mark 11:25

Pure speculation that Jesus is requiring in this teaching that we should forgive only those who are repentant, for repentance is not mentioned. He is clearly teaching that you should forgive and not hold unto unforgiveness in your heart.

Forgive those that repent!

And those whom are unrepentant. Matthew puts it this way...

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight

And true love is not always manifested as acceptance, forgiveness and mercy is it?

True love is found in the words of Jesus who taught...

And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

True love abhors evil and clings to what is good.

Did you know God is kind to the wicked by allowing them to have children, to enjoy marriage, to enjoy his creation. In fact, God has blessed pagans with these blessings.

Do you now see that God blesses pagans?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak

Anecdotal evidence is interesting, I have some myself!

And I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence is very different from yours.

That's why "The battle of the anecdotal evidence" is futile.

But I do appreciate your input.

Uh... that wasn't anecdotal evidence.

I suggest you get a dictionary. They come in very handy sometimes.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by PureX

Well it certainly looks contradictory to me.

"If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him."

Did you read this....?

Think of it this way....
The boss at Taco bell explains to the employees how to make a taco. Later he tells them to make tacos when the orders are coming in. The boss doesn't need to re-explain making a taco every time he asks his employees to make a taco.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Ok... so here we are at our 100th post on this most interesting thread and what do we know? We now know that Freak thinks that God wants us to forgive unconditionally with or without repentance.

What on odd theology.

So tell me Freak if Jesus really wants us to forgive WITHOUT repentance why doesn't He follow His own example?

Why did He only forgive the repentant thief on the cross? Why didn't He forgive the other guy as well?

Moreover why doesn't He forgive EVERYONE???

Why is anyone in hell?

Shouldn't EVERYONE be forgiven?

Why did John the Baptist cry for repentance? Why didn't he just yell through the streets "all are already forgiven!!!"

Is the government unrighteous for punishing criminals? According to Freak the government would only be righteous if they forgave all sins and crimes. You are forgiven Mr. child molester and have a great day!

So tell us Freak.....
Why doesn't God forgive unconditionally? Why doesn't Jesus forgive unconditionally?