Forgiving Others

[the Sibbie]

Re: Re: My Thoughts on Forgiveness

Re: Re: My Thoughts on Forgiveness

Originally posted by Knight

...we should look past the offense or we will become bitter people.

I think this is where longsuffering and self control come into play.

 

[adajos]

Knight:

Jesus asked the Father....

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” And they divided His garments and cast lots. - Luke 23:34

The Roman soldiers clearly knew they were crucifying an innocent man or at very least a man that their leader (Pilate) said had done no crime (Luke 23:4).

So Jesus wasn't asking the Father to forgive them for what they were doing, yet for what they DIDN'T know they were doing.

Now..... what were the Roman Soldiers doing that they weren't aware of????

Ignorance and repentance are not the same thing. In fact, it's impossible to repent of a sin if one is ignorant of it being a sin. So any way you cut it, Christ forgave them for sins that they had not repented of.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: My Thoughts on Forgiveness

Re: Re: Re: My Thoughts on Forgiveness

Originally posted by the Sibbie

I think this is where longsuffering and self control come into play.

:sibbie: The Sibbinator strikes again!!! :thumb:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by adajos

Knight:



Ignorance and repentance are not the same thing. In fact, it's impossible to repent of a sin if one is ignorant of it being a sin. So any way you cut it, Christ forgave them for sins that they had not repented of.

That isn't what the Bible says.

 

[adajos]

Knight:

That isn't what the Bible says.

What isn't what the Bible says?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by adajos

Knight:



Ignorance and repentance are not the same thing. In fact, it's impossible to repent of a sin if one is ignorant of it being a sin. So any way you cut it, Christ forgave them for sins that they had not repented of.

Oh and you forgot to answer my question.....

What were the Roman Soldiers doing that they weren't aware of????

 

[adajos]

What were the Roman Soldiers doing that they weren't aware of????

Executing the Son of God. I don't see how that affects the case I'm making.

 

[PureX]

Re: Forgiving Others

Originally posted by Lucky

Should we forgive only those who ask for forgiveness? Tell me why you think we should or should not.

Let's be honest. If we only forgave those who recognized their offensive behaviors and asked us for our forgiveness, we'd basically almost never forgive anyone. And who would want to carry around all that resentment? Not me.

I also think that it's part of the idea of forgiveness that the person being forgiven does not have to "repent". It would be wonderful if they did, of course, but it's not a criteria for their being forgiven. You can see this in the word, itself: for - given, given before, before what? It could mean before being asked, or it could mean even before causing offense. Either way, I don't see any inference that there must be some request prior to forgiveness.

 

[Aimiel]

Re: Re: My Thoughts on Forgiveness

Re: Re: My Thoughts on Forgiveness

Originally posted by Knight

These things are not sinful.

Therefore when a person cuts us off on the freeway or jumps in line at the grocery store we should look past the offense or we will become bitter people.

I don't know about you, but I used to 'take offense' when someone did these things to me. I took this sermon to heart.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

But these things are not sinful therefore the question of forgiveness and repentance doesn't really apply.

Someone who cuts in line, whether he realizes it or not, is commiting a crime, and an offence. We are to obey the law, whether it is man's or God's law, it is to be obeyed. You don't consider criminals to be sinning, unless they violate one of the commandments? I do. They are in rebellion.

 

[the Sibbie]

Originally posted by Knight

Jesus asked the Father....

Now..... what were the Roman Soldiers doing that they weren't aware of????

Originally posted by adajos

Executing the Son of God. I don't see how that affects the case I'm making.

I believe you already answered that one for yourself.

Originally posted by adajos

In fact, it's impossible to repent of a sin if one is ignorant of it being a sin.

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” And they divided His garments and cast lots. - Luke 23:34

 

[adajos]

Sibbie:

I'm confused by your post.

Knight suggested that his interpretation of that was that Christ didn't forgive the solders for crucifying an innocent man, but rather forgave them for something they didn't know they did---executing the Son of God.

My point is, who cares? He still forgave them for a sin they didn't repent of, because they didn't know they were doing it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Forgiving Others

Re: Re: Forgiving Others

Originally posted by PureX

Let's be honest. If we only forgave those who recognized their offensive behaviors and asked us for our forgiveness, we'd basically almost never forgive anyone. And who would want to carry around all that resentment? Not me.

Forgiving someone who doesn't repent is wrong. It hurts them and it hurts you and God grieves when we do it.

If you personally feel less resentment for false forgiveness good for you! but others may have greater resentment when they are fooled into forgiving those who don't ask.

I also think that it's part of the idea of forgiveness that the person being forgiven does not have to "repent". It would be wonderful if they did, of course, but it's not a criteria for their being forgiven.

When we forgive them without repentance we solidify their sin.

We hurt them because now they feel repentance is not neccesary.

Moreover...
If we are forgiving (even without repentance) because it makes us "feel better" isn't that a selfish way to live? I try to not be selfish and try to do God's will which is better for the sinner. Arn't we supposed to be helping those who are sinning????

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by adajos
My point is, who cares? He still forgave them for a sin they didn't repent of, because they didn't know they were doing it.

Uh.... hello... is anyone in there?????:freak:

The point is..... (which you helped illustrate brilliantly) is that Jesus DIDN'T ask the Father to forgive them of the sin that they knew they were committing.

Get the point?

 

[adajos]

Knight:

Uh.... hello... is anyone in there?????

The point is..... (which you helped illustrate brilliantly) is that Jesus DIDN'T ask the Father to forgive them of the sin that they knew they were committing.

Get the point?

I get your point. But you're missing my point. Maybe this will help.

What was Jesus forgiving them for and had they repented of what He forgave them for before he forgave them?

He must have been forgiving them of sin right, or why would He say "Father, forgive them"? So, did they repent of that sin prior to Christ asking for their forgiveness?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: My Thoughts on Forgiveness

Re: Re: Re: My Thoughts on Forgiveness

Originally posted by Aimiel

I don't know about you, but I used to 'take offense' when someone did these things to me. I took this sermon to heart.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!Someone who cuts in line, whether he realizes it or not, is commiting a crime, and an offence. We are to obey the law, whether it is man's or God's law, it is to be obeyed. You don't consider criminals to be sinning, unless they violate one of the commandments? I do. They are in rebellion.

Aimiel.... dude... what are you talking about????

Are you seriously trying to make the point that offending someone is a sin?????

If so, Jesus was the biggest sinner of all time!!!

As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” - Romans 9:33

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by adajos

Knight:



I get your point. But you're missing my point. Maybe this will help.

What was Jesus forgiving them of and had they repented of what He forgave them for before he forgave them?

First off.... Jesus didn't forgive them of anything. Jesus did however ASK the Father to forgive them for doing what they were NOT aware of.

Secondly....There is no biblical evidence to suggest that Jesus wanted the Father to forgive them for the sin they WERE aware of.

 

[Melody]

I tell you what, you keep claiming that it is ungodly to forgive those that have not asked for repentance. Show me the scripture that I cannot forgive.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Melody

I tell you what, you keep claiming that it is ungodly to forgive those that have not asked for repentance. Show me the scripture that I cannot forgive.

Luke 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4 “And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

 

[adajos]

Knight:

First off.... Jesus didn't forgive them of anything. Jesus did however ASK the Father to forgive them for doing what they were NOT aware of.

What's the point of making the distinction? I don't see that it's germane to the topic, unless you are suggesting that either Christ couldn't forgive sin Himself or that different parts of the Trinity could have different "statuses" of forgiveness towards a given sin.

Bottom line, the Roman soldiers weren't aware they were sinning by executing the Son of God yet Christ forgave them--unless He was asking the Father to do something that He was unwilling to do Himself.

Secondly....There is no biblical evidence to suggest that Jesus wanted the Father to forgive them for the sin they WERE aware of.

I never suggested that we ought to forgive people in all circumstances, nor that God would either. I suggested that sometimes forgiveness is appropriate even if we haven't been asked for forgiveness.

I believe Christ bears out that idea from the cross.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by adajos
I don't see that it's germane to the topic, unless you are suggesting that either Christ couldn't I never suggested that we ought to forgive people in all circumstances, nor that God would either. I suggested that sometimes forgiveness is appropriate even if we haven't been asked for forgiveness.

I believe Christ bears out that idea from the cross.

REALLY????? How so? Out of the two on the crosses with Jesus one was repentant and one wasn't. Which one did Jesus forgive? :think: