foolish question

[Nathon Detroit]

this is the second time you've chosen to insult me rather than deal with what i say.

i'll remember that.

Good for you.

survival is not a moral dilemma.

you have yet to dispute that.

It's irrelevant!!! It's not even on topic! Which of course is why you are trying to pound on the point desperately hoping to distract from your concession of the debate at hand.

so far SUTG is the only person i see viewing this thread right now.

i might be going out on a limb here, but i doubt he agrees with you.

Misery loves company.

claiming victory is a shallow way to end an argument Knight.

What else can I do? You conceded the debate!

You acknowledged that warfare can be justifiable and therefore you can no longer claim that God had the Hebrew soldiers commit something unjustifiable!

It's over dude.

Here is a hint for you for next time. The next time you debate this with somebody don't acknowledge that war can be justifiable. :doh: The instant you do that you lose the debate regarding... can warfare be justifiable. :duh:

 

[genuineoriginal]

Here is another question:
If you were an athiest, and someone told you that you had to kill an infant to keep it from messing up your life, would you pay for the abortion and have it done?

Looks like no one want to answer the question I asked.

The situation I asked about is not a life or death situation, so it is a question of morals.

 

[allsmiles]

Good for you.

It's irrelevant!!! It's not even on topic! Which of course is why you are trying to pound on the point desperately hoping to distract from your concession of the debate at hand.

it's perfectly relevant.

What else can I do? You conceded the debate!

You acknowledged that warfare can be justifiable and therefore you can no longer claim that God had the Hebrew soldiers commit something unjustifiable!

i acknowledge that war is justifiable as a means of survival, it is not justifiable morally... your argument against this is baseless and arbitrary.

this is the distinction that you have been ignoring Knight.

the example of the slaughter of the innocents in the Jericho story does not relfect survival as a practical necessity.

slaughtering defenseless women and children is a moral cunundrum... killing an enemy on the battlefield is not... it is justifiable because survival is the only viable option.

It's over dude.

Here is a hint for you for next time. The next time you debate this with somebody don't acknowledge that war can be justifiable. :doh: The instant you do that you lose the debate regarding... can warfare be justifiable. :duh:

war is justifiable as a means of survival, it is not morally justifiable.

survival is not a moral dilemma.

that you cannot understand this distinction is not my problem, it is yours.

you have won nothing Knight.

you have not addressed any of my claims, you have not answered any of my questions, you have ignored the bulk of my posts, you have misquoted me, you have claimed premature victory, you made a false claim of obfuscation, i demonstrated that you were in fact obfuscating, i demonstrated that you were misusing scripture, you introduced ad hominems to the discussion, you claimed superioty based on a blatantly false assessment of consensus, you have made blatant baseless assertions (war can be justifiable = moral judgement), etc.

:nono: = good old fashioned head shaking.

 

[allsmiles]

The situation I asked about is not a life or death situation, so it is a question of morals.

:BRAVO:

someone who gets it

 

[Stripe]

96-B

(the score .. ok?)

 

[genuineoriginal]

i acknowledge that war is justifiable as a means of survival, it is not justifiable morally... your argument against this is baseless and arbitrary.

this is the distinction that you have been ignoring Knight.

the example of the slaughter of the innocents in the Jericho story does not relfect survival as a practical necessity.

slaughtering defenseless women and children is a moral cunundrum... killing an enemy on the battlefield is not... it is justifiable because survival is the only viable option.

Slaughter of women and children is part of war, whether it is for survival or not. It has been done in every single war that has taken place on this planet. It also happens a lot when there is no war.

Does your disbelief in God go so far as to make you disbelieve reality?

 

[genuineoriginal]

:BRAVO:

someone who gets it

I take this as an answer to my question? You would pay for and have the abortion just because an athiest told you that letting the child live would mess up your life?

 

[Stripe]

for the record .. i listened to all 4 parts ..

.. it was compelling stuff...

 

[JanowJ]

okay, i understand... you use Pharaoh below as an example, but do you have a more modern example of your god revealing himself to humans and having them reject him?

and i would expect the bible to reflect this idea, but i'm not convinced of how realistic it is.

do you have a modern example of God directly revealing himself to his enemies only to have them reject his very real presence and power?

Yes, I do. It's called creation.

Romans 1:20-23:
[/QUOTE]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.[/QUOTE]

Just look up at the wonder of a midnight sky. Or recently, the full eclipse of the sun (well, I hope you didn't look up at it). God's glory is everywhere we look in the natural world, yet atheists deny God everyday.

And for another example... do you have children? Ever catch them in an obvious lie? And, when you confront them, do your children go "Gee dad, your right. I am truly sorry, I recognize your wisdom and authority and I humble myself in repentance..." Doesn't happen. It's the same thing (although on a much smaller scale) when we humans are confronted directly with our sin and we come face to face with the Living God. We humans are incredibly stubborn, even in light of overwhelming evidence against us.

God reveals Himself to you everyday when you wake up to a cloudless sunrise, when you see a beautiful sunset, or even in the terrible storms that man cannot control. God is right there in front of you everyday, and yet you continue to reject Him.

 

[JanowJ]

let's say you're in charge of an army and there is a threat of battle. the consequences of the battle surely means the deaths of thousands upon thousands of soldiers on both your side and theirs. you know you can win the battle, but not without the vast blood shed.

there is an alternative to the blood shed that would result in a peaceful resolution to the impending conflict. neither side has to suffer casualties and in fact, the alternative also promises rewards for both armies and countries and a new, diplomatic, relationship between you and your enemy.

you would opt for the blood shed?

Does the name Neville Chamberlin mean anything to you?

Remember that what you're describing is what Europe tried to do with Hitler before WWII. Rather than risk bloodshed and confront Hitler, the Europeans (England, France, Austria, Russia and Czechoslovakia) all made "land for peace" deals with Hitler's Germany. Hitler than violated the treaties each time. They tried to have a peaceful resolution, but it just was untenable. Finally, because they let Hitler fester for so long, the bloodshed in WWII was far greater than it would have been if they had just dealt with him earlier.
Yes, war is terrible, but sometimes the consequences of not going to war are far worse. The Bible is correct when it states that there is "A time of war, And a time of peace." Ecclesiastes 3:8

 

[Granite]

Charming to see Christians insisting killing infants was the right thing to do.

Sanctity of life my foot.

Everyone's expendable in the right situation.

 

[fool]

NEXT TOPIC:

So... you are not morally opposed to war. Great! Only idiots are. Would you agree that in warfare things that are normally morally wrong might now be morally right?

For instance... it would be wrong for me to take a gun and shoot and kill a man standing across the street in normal circumstances (that's murder). However, in war if that man is my enemy it would be perfectly acceptable to shoot and kill the man standing across the street (that isn't murder).

Likewise... in war you might drop a bomb a kill thousands of people in an effort to defeat your enemy as a whole, yet outside of warfare that would be murder.

Would you agree that if war can be morally acceptable then the morality associated with certain tasks is different than it would be when you are NOT at war?

Would you agree with that?

Knight;
We covered that already, many times, I suggest you read post 95 in this thread, or listen to the very beginning of the first segment. Being at war is not an ethical Carte Blanche.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Charming to see Christians insisting killing infants was the right thing to do.

Sanctity of life my foot.

Everyone's expendable in the right situation.

Charming to see Satanists understanding that God has higher standards than Satan, and God expects His followers to live up to those higher standards.

 

[fool]

Looks like no one want to answer the question I asked.

The situation I asked about is not a life or death situation, so it is a question of morals.

See post #46 for my answer.
Also, good job on spotting the fact that that's not a life or death question, neither is mine.
In my question there's nothing to stop you from taking the infant home and keeping it (other than the fact that you would piss off Yaweh in doing so.)

 

[Granite]

Charming to see Satanists understanding that God has higher standards than Satan, and God expects His followers to live up to those higher standards.

:rotfl:

Who asked you, chump?

 

[genuineoriginal]

See post #46 for my answer.
Also, good job on spotting the fact that that's not a life or death question, neither is mine.
In my question there's nothing to stop you from taking the infant home and keeping it (other than the fact that you would piss off Yaweh in doing so.)

I am sorry, fool, for missing that. You are the only one who did answer my question.

As far as your question, it is a life or death situation. It was not just the life or death of the soldiers, it was the life or death of the entire nation.

God set some rules on the battle of Jericho. The Children of Israel were not to attack the walls, they were to march once around the city for seven days, and on the seventh day they were to march seven times then blow a trumpet. The walls of Jericho fell down at that time, and the Children of Israel were to destroy everything in the city except for Rahab and her family, and the silver, gold, brass, and iron which was to be taken for the treasury of the LORD.

The battle of Jericho was not an ordinary battle. The Children of Israel gained a reputation of having a powerful God, and of following that God.

This produced fear in the inhabitants of the land of Canaan.

Joshua 9
24And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing.​

This fear removed much of the threat to the life of the nation of Israel.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Charming to see Christians insisting killing infants was the right thing to do.

Sanctity of life my foot.

Everyone's expendable in the right situation.

Charming to see Satanists understanding that God has higher standards than Satan, and God expects His followers to live up to those higher standards.

Thank you for the neg rep. I am pleased to suffer condemnation from Satanists for following the One True God of the Bible.

 

[Granite]

Thank you for the neg rep. I am pleased to suffer condemnation from Satanists for following the One True God of the Bible.

:rotfl:

 

[allsmiles]

Slaughter of women and children is part of war, whether it is for survival or not. It has been done in every single war that has taken place on this planet. It also happens a lot when there is no war.

and survival is not a moral dilemma.

slaughtering defenseless women and children is.

Does your disbelief in God go so far as to make you disbelieve reality?

my disbelief in your specific god has nothing to do with this.

killing an enemy on the battlefield before he kills you is not a moral dilemma.

killing the enemy's wife and child after dragging them out of their home is.

I take this as an answer to my question? You would pay for and have the abortion just because an athiest told you that letting the child live would mess up your life?

no, it was an observation that you understand the difference between a life and death situation being an issue of practicality/survival and killing women and children being a moral dilemma.

 

[allsmiles]

Yes, I do. It's called creation.

Romans 1:20-23:
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

i was asking Knight for an example on the scale of Pharaoh experiencing the very real presence of the power of god.

your example is nowhere near that.

Just look up at the wonder of a midnight sky. Or recently, the full eclipse of the sun (well, I hope you didn't look up at it). God's glory is everywhere we look in the natural world, yet atheists deny God everyday.

And for another example... do you have children? Ever catch them in an obvious lie? And, when you confront them, do your children go "Gee dad, your right. I am truly sorry, I recognize your wisdom and authority and I humble myself in repentance..." Doesn't happen. It's the same thing (although on a much smaller scale) when we humans are confronted directly with our sin and we come face to face with the Living God. We humans are incredibly stubborn, even in light of overwhelming evidence against us.

God reveals Himself to you everyday when you wake up to a cloudless sunrise, when you see a beautiful sunset, or even in the terrible storms that man cannot control. God is right there in front of you everyday, and yet you continue to reject Him.

unfortunately for yourself the objects in nature you specifiy could be the work of any creating god or creating life force.

it is impossible for you to positively identify your specific god in creation.