Faith to believe on Christ !

[Gary K]

B57 is unlikely to engage you. He isn't here to debate his doctrine. He is simply interested in stating it and pretending that he's established it by virtue of the fact that he showed up here to say it.

Personally, I have to confess that I don't get it.
What is it that you think B57 is stating that is in anyway contrary to the quote you cited from Institutes?

What Calvin wrote was that even those who are not Christians have some gifts from God such as justice, kindness, etc.... It does not justify them in God's sight but He dispenses these gifts to the entire world to those who will accept them.

 

[Clete]

What Calvin wrote was that even those who are not Christians have some gifts from God such as justice, kindness, etc.... It does not justify them in God's sight but He dispenses these gifts to the entire world to those who will accept them.

And you think B57 disagrees with that?

 

[Gary K]

And you think B57 disagrees with that?

Yes. Absolutely. Remember he believes in determinism. Therefore he will automatically reject the idea that God gives any portion of His attributes to a non-Christian.

 

[Clete]

Yes. Absolutely. Remember he believes in determinism. Therefore he will automatically reject the idea that God gives any portion of His attributes to a non-Christian.

You're not correct about that. B57 is a lot of things but he isn't stupid. He understands that evil people are alive and that God is Life and the ultimate source of all life. Also, he's perfectly well aware of Christ's teaching in Matthew...

Matthew 5:45b ... for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Trust me, there's plenty enough to dispute with B57 about. He's wrong on very nearly every single thing he states here on TOL but on this particular point, I think you've missed him.

 

[Gary K]

You're not correct about that. B57 is a lot of things but he isn't stupid. He understands that evil people are alive and that God is Life and the ultimate source of all life. Also, he's perfectly well aware of Christ's teaching in Matthew...

Matthew 5:45b ... for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Trust me, there's plenty enough to dispute with B57 about. He's wrong on very nearly every single thing he states here on TOL but on this particular point, I think you've missed him.

Oh, well. I've been wrong before and will be again. We'll see what happens and who is correct

 

[Gary K]

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
He is a pervert and outside the faith. This site, before the prince of power of the air convinced the owner/operators to punish those preaching and reward those trying to pull people from the faith, was a magnet. Just as he said

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

And B57 was not alone. One member here when I pushed and pushed, and didn't address his red herrings claimed he "did not believe, God made him believe". Calvinism isn't a bad theology doctrine that opposes the open view, it is a false gospel and those who keep it and preach are headed for hell. And rightly so.

Really? God cannot change their hearts and cause them to repent? I don't agree with your definition of hell any more than I do with the reformed point of view on it. The doctrine of hell makes God evil for punishing people for eternity for a few years of sinning. God is a God of mercy, longsuffering and justice.

Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

Psa 86:15 But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.

As we are all sinners we have all done sinful things.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

[JudgeRightly]

God cannot change their hearts and cause them to repent?

He could forcibly change someone's heart, but that would be, by definition, unjust.

I don't agree with your definition of hell any more than I do with the reformed point of view on it. The doctrine of hell makes God evil for punishing people for eternity for a few years of sinning.

That's not what they're being thrown into the lake of fire for.

God is a God of mercy, longsuffering and justice.

Yes He is.

Eventually, His patience will run out, and He will pass judgement on those who have run it out.

As we are all sinners we have all done sinful things.

And those who have put their faith in God have had their sins forgiven.

Those who have not, have not, and until they do, their final destination is the lake of fire.

 

[Gary K]

He could forcibly change someone's heart, but that would be, by definition, unjust.



That's not what they're being thrown into the lake of fire for.



Yes He is.

Eventually, His patience will run out, and He will pass judgement on those who have run it out.



And those who have put their faith in God have had their sins forgiven.

Those who have not, have not, and until they do, their final destination is the lake of fire.

There you go again. The concept of hell itself is unjust and outside the concept of mercy. You even pointed out my belief in the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

See. The lake of fire is the second death from which no one comes back from. It also makes a mockery of Paul's words.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God through Jesus is an eternity of torture.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The concept of hell itself is unjust and outside the concept of mercy.

Argument from repetition.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The lake of fire is the second death from which no one comes back from.

Correct.

It also makes a mockery of Paul's words.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The wages of sin is death

Yes.

but the gift of God through Jesus is an eternity of torture.

What? Who's position is that?

It's not mine.

If someone REJECTS God's gift of free life, then they deserve death.

"I have set before you this day life and death. Therefore, CHOOSE LIFE, that you may live."

If someone does not choose life, then the ONLY ALTERNATIVE is death, for God is Life, and rejecting Him is rejecting Life.

 

[Clete]

He is a pervert and outside the faith. This site, before the prince of power of the air convinced the owner/operators to punish those preaching and reward those trying to pull people from the faith, was a magnet. Just as he said

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

And B57 was not alone. One member here when I pushed and pushed, and didn't address his red herrings claimed he "did not believe, God made him believe". Calvinism isn't a bad theology doctrine that opposes the open view, it is a false gospel and those who keep it and preach are headed for hell. And rightly so.

Please clarify...

Who is the pervert and outside the faith?
Who is it that Satan convinced to punish preachers?

 

[Clete]

Really? God cannot change their hearts and cause them to repent? I don't agree with your definition of hell any more than I do with the reformed point of view on it. The doctrine of hell makes God evil for punishing people for eternity for a few years of sinning. God is a God of mercy, longsuffering and justice.

You haven't the faintest idea what you're even talking about.

Your hubris is beyond my comprehension! You need to remember that there will come a day when you will give an account for every idle word you've spoken. Giving lip service to God's justice while stating the opposite, isn't going to cut it on judgment day. You're betting one hell of a lot on being right on this point. Much more than any reasonable person would knowingly wager.

As we are all sinners we have all done sinful things.

Which means what, exactly, Gary? Do you even know?

If rebellion against the infinite God of eternal life is somehow a finite issue and the just punishment for rebelling against this infinite God of eternal Life isn't eternal death but is something else that is defined only as finite, then why was it necessary for the infinite God of eternal life to die for sin? Or don't you believe that He did so? You wouldn't be alone, if you didn't. The rejection of an eternal Hell usually goes hand in hand with a rejection of the deity of Christ. Regardless of that, however, if the punishment is finite, why would the price paid for it need to be infinite? If it's finite then why couldn't God have simply created a being of sufficient value and then sacrificed that being to pay for sin? Why did it have to be the incarnate Creator Himself?

Clete

 

[Old Hat]

2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Peter in this scripture does inform us where precious Faith comes from ! Its certainly not of ourselves Eph 2:8.

It comes in or with the Righteousness of God and Our Saviour, this Righteousness is the free gift that Christ purchased and bestows upon all for whom He died Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)

This Righteousness as well as that referred to in 2 Pet 1:1 is the imparted Righteousness of Christ we receive at New Birth. It is through this imparted or communicated Righteousness at New Birth we receive of, that with it we are given precious Faith.

Peter goes on to say 2 Pet 1:3-4

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Faith or precious Faith is of the many things Given to us by New Birth which gives us to live a life of godliness !

So 2 Pet 1:1 is but another scripture that proves biblically that Faith is the product of New Birth, partaking experimentally of the Divine Nature !

Yes, the Bible makes very clear that Faith is a gift and that fact contradicts many of the modern mainstream church heresies being taught to Christians today.

If faith is not something that we can just wake up one day and choose for ourselves, with our own will and power, then a majority of what is taught in churches falls flat on its face.

They teach that faith is a choice and they will attack you relentlessly from all sides if you claim otherwise.

Well, ... the Bible claims otherwise.

And the Bible is the sacred Word of God Almighty.

 

[Hoping]

Yes, the Bible makes very clear that Faith is a gift and that fact contradicts many of the modern mainstream church heresies being taught to Christians today.

If faith is not something that we can just wake up one day and choose for ourselves, with our own will and power, then a majority of what is taught in churches falls flat on its face.

They teach that faith is a choice and they will attack you relentlessly from all sides if you claim otherwise.

Well, ... the Bible claims otherwise.

And the Bible is the sacred Word of God Almighty.

Do you really feel the real God would withhold faith from some and then throw them into the lake of fire?
I don't.

BTW, how do you know you have faith?
What are the signs of faith?

 

[Clete]

Yes, the Bible makes very clear that Faith is a gift and that fact contradicts many of the modern mainstream church heresies being taught to Christians today.

If faith is not something that we can just wake up one day and choose for ourselves, with our own will and power, then a majority of what is taught in churches falls flat on its face.

They teach that faith is a choice and they will attack you relentlessly from all sides if you claim otherwise.

Well, ... the Bible claims otherwise.

And the Bible is the sacred Word of God Almighty.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

[Old Hat]

Do you really feel the real God would withhold faith from some and then throw them into the lake of fire?
I don't.

Do you really feel that the Bible is the Word of God?
I do.

BTW, how do you know you have faith?

I believe what the Bible teaches.
Not what man teaches.

What are the signs of faith?

That's a great start.

 

[Old Hat]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Reading it in God's Word makes it so.

Then saying it afterwards makes it still so.

 

[Clete]

Reading it in God's Word makes it so.

Then saying it afterwards makes it still so.

Two stupid sentences in a row. The second sentence doesn't even make any sense at all and saying that you read it in God's word does NOT make it so, Old Hat. It doesn't. If you actually do think it does (which you almost certainly do not) then you are flatly stupid and should prepair yourself to be lead by the nose down whatever premrose path the next cult leader decides to take you down.

Take a clue and figure out that no one here is interested in your theological pronouncements. Such unsupported theological claims are a dime a dozen. Everyone thinks their doctrine is taught in the bible. Nearly everyone is wrong. You claiming that your doctrine is biblical holds no more water than if Benny Hinn or Creflo Dollar had shown up here and made the same claim.

Instead, be interesting and make an actual argument!

 

[Old Hat]

Two stupid sentences in a row. The second sentence doesn't even make any sense at all and saying that you read it in God's word does NOT make it so, Old Hat. It doesn't. If you actually do think it does (which you almost certainly do not) then you are flatly stupid and should prepair yourself to be lead by the nose down whatever premrose path the next cult leader decides to take you down.

Take a clue and figure out that no one here is interested in your theological pronouncements. Such unsupported theological claims are a dime a dozen. Everyone thinks their doctrine is taught in the bible. Nearly everyone is wrong. You claiming that your doctrine is biblical holds no more water than if Benny Hinn or Creflo Dollar had shown up here and made the same claim.

Instead, be interesting and make an actual argument!

So you're the insulter and name-caller of the Forum, ay?

Gotcha.

Powerful post!

 

[Hoping]

Do you really feel that the Bible is the Word of God?

That didn't answer my question.

I do.
I believe what the Bible teaches.
Not what man teaches.
That's a great start.

You didn't answer any of my quetions.

 

[Old Hat]

Two stupid sentences in a row. ... you are flatly stupid

Instead, be interesting and make an actual argument!

You clearly haven't learned much in your life.

All of your weak insults and name-calling make you look ten times more stupid than all those you attack.

Imbecile.

Do you believe Jesus is God, ignorant fool?

If so, then your God made it plain in Scripture that there were people He had no intention of giving faith, or Truth, to and was perfectly content with them being destroyed, or suffering in hell.

Has your wise arse ever read Matthew 13 or are you one of the idiots that claims that's all parable even after Christ made it crystal clear that it was fact?