Faith to believe on Christ !

Clete

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I'm just saying that grammatically speaking, in both passages, the word "faith" is written as a noun, but that they are in different grammatical categories.



I'm not sure. I don't know greek. All I have is the app I screenshotted above to tell me that they're nouns in the greek.



But that's not how they're being used in Galatians.

The fruit (noun) of the Spirit is love (noun), joy (noun), peace (noun), longsuffering (noun), kindness (noun), goodness (noun), faithfulness (noun), gentleness (noun), self-control (noun).



I totally agree.



Agreed!



I mean, I agree, but the way Paul words it is that they are qualities (nouns) brought about by the working of the Spirit within them, in conjunction with their willingness, of course.



Agreed.



Agreed.

In addition, it almost seems like Paul isn't talking only about those who believe, but also about those who will believe but haven't yet.

In the Parable of the Barren Fig tree, Jesus says that for three years He had come seeking fruit from Israel, but found none, and told the Holy Spirit to cut down the tree. The Holy Spirit told Him to wait one more year (the time period between His ascension and Paul's conversion) for Him to dig around it and fertilize it, and if it bears fruit, well, but if not, after that He can cut it down. So while ultimately, Israel bore no fruit, as a nation, there was the Remnant who believed, a fruit of sorts.

This is somewhat how I imagine the Spirit works in unbelievers today, working in their hearts to bring them to God, and the fruit of His working in their heart, when the flower has been fertilized, so to speak, is that the person has faith, and trusts in God.

And I just realized I solved an issue I was having with this point that B57 had brought up previously... and I believe solves this entire issue.

@beloved57 The point is that just because the fruit of the spirit is faith, doesn't mean that the Spirit gives a person that faith. No, the fruit comes from the tree that the spirit fertilizes, not from the Spirit Himself. And that faith leads a person to call upon God for help, and God hears and saves the person.

For:

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ Lord, who has believed our report?”So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:9-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-17&version=NKJV
As evidenced by the number of times you agreed with me, there really isn't a dime's worth of difference between what we are saying. It's literally the difference between talking about the color red vs. talking about a red car. If the Barren Fig Tree had born fruit after being fertilized, what would that have looked like except Jesus finding faithful (adjective) people? You could reword it and say that Jesus found people with faith (noun) but then are you really saying anything different? No! The entire point is that faith is not an ontological thing. It is a concept that describes something that is happening inside someone's mind.

And, I think you're dead on correct about what is meant by the Spirit bearing fruit in a person's life. Faith isn't something that the Spirit gives to a person and therefore they believe, it's that they put their faith in God as a result of the work the Spirit has done in that person's life.

Bottom line is that point I was trying to make was valid but the wording I used, "noun" vs. "adjective", was less than ideal.

Clete
 
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beloved57

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Believing on Christ, Faith in Him is a byproduct of Him Shedding His Blood for us, for each whoever He died, it, His blood purges their conscience, causung them to believe in Him and become a servant, follwer of Him, or God in Him Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Certainly,
we cant serve the Living God apart from Faith in Him

We must serve Him acceptably Heb 12:28

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear

Those who Christ died for, He as their High Priest sprinkles the Blood to their conscience

Heb 10:22


Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
 

Clete

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Believing on Christ, Faith in Him is a byproduct of Him Shedding His Blood for us, for each whoever He died, it, His blood purges their conscience, causung them to believe in Him and become a servant, follwer of Him, or God in Him Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
The cited verse doesn't teach the doctrine he espouses here. Hebrews 9:14 doesn't speak about the blood of Christ doing something to us as though it were some sort of magic spell cast on us against our will or absent our knowledge and consent. It, just like everything else b57 has presented, is used as nothing other than a pretext.
There doesn't seem to be a verse in the whole bible that the Calvinist doesn't twist in some way. They seem incapable of simply reading the bible and taking it to mean what it says, which is why they typically refuse to quote more that a single sentence at a time. If you simply read Hebrews 9, you'll notice without effort that the author of Hebrews (a book written not to modern members of the Body of Christ but to believing Jews, hence the title "Hebrews") was drawing a parallel between rituals performed in the Temple and the blood that was shed at Calvary. There isn't anything difficult or mystical to understand about it. Just read it.

Certainly, we cant serve the Living God apart from Faith in Him
Which the Calvinist doesn't believe you can fail to get from God if you've been arbitrarily predestined to salvation and that you cannot get at all if you've predestined to eternal punishment.

We must serve Him acceptably Heb 12:28

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear
One wonders why its so difficult for b57 to hit the enter button before typing the verse reference so that its on the same line as the verse itself. It is stupidity or could it be that he wants to camouflage his words and make it hard to tell when you're reading the bible vs. reading b57's asinine doctrinal proclamations?

In either case, b57 does not believe that a person who God arbitrarily chose for salvation could ever be short on acceptable quantities of reverence and godly fear. He also believes that anyone found to be failing to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear was predestined to do so and could not have done otherwise.

Those who Christ died for, He as their High Priest sprinkles the Blood to their conscience

Heb 10:22


Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Of course Christ does not do this literally. The author of Hebrews is simply explaining what the rituals performed in the temple have been a picture of.
One should note, by the way, that just because you were a Jew and there was a High Priest making sacrifices for the whole nation, didn't mean that you were saved. It still required that you, as an individual person, believe God and put your faith in Him. No one, at any time, ever got saved without their knowledge, consent and volitional submission to the living God.

Clete
 
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beloved57

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Sure to all the seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Faith to believe in Christ is sure to all the seed. The seed is the Spiritual seed of Abraham, whether jew or gentile. and they shall be identified by faith in Jesus Christ, and faith is sure because its the product of grace. Sinners can only believe through or by Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

If Faith was of the flesh, it wouldn't be sure, they which are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 

Clete

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Sure to all the seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Faith to believe in Christ is sure to all the seed. The seed is the Spiritual seed of Abraham, whether jew or gentile. and they shall be identified by faith in Jesus Christ, and faith is sure because its the product of grace. Sinners can only believe through or by Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

If Faith was of the flesh, it wouldn't be sure, they which are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.​

B57 has no concept at all of what "the Body of Christ" means or what it is. He has no idea of what it means to "put on Christ". He hasn't any idea what it means when Paul declares...
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​
 

beloved57

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Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.​

B57 has no concept at all of what "the Body of Christ" means or what it is. He has no idea of what it means to "put on Christ". He hasn't any idea what it means when Paul declares...
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​
See Christ produces the Spiritual Seed of Abraham by giving them Faith Gal 3:7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
 

beloved57

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Faith to believe in Jesus for Salvation, isnt something generated by the so called freewill of man, but its a special blessing of Gods ordaining, God must ordain it Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 

Clete

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See Christ produces the Spiritual Seed of Abraham by giving them Faith Gal 3:7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
That isn't what it says, b47! Christ IS the seed of Abraham! He is THE seed.

I say it again, you have no concept at all of what "the Body of Christ" means or what it is. You have no idea of what it means to "put on Christ" and you haven't any idea what it means when Paul declares...

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​

Your doctrine has you so convinced that you're some sort of puppet on strings that you can't possibly get it. Your own doctrine blinds you to one of the most important concepts in the whole Christian faith!
 

Clete

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Faith to believe in Jesus for Salvation, isnt something generated by the so called freewill of man, but its a special blessing of Gods ordaining, God must ordain it Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Once again, b57 rips a single sentence out of its context so that it can be used as a pretext for his doctrine which is hostile to God's character.

If all you do is simply read two sentences before verse 48, you find a verse that b57 wouldn't quote if someone put a gun to his head because it openly contradicts the very same doctrine which he is propping up with verse 48.

Acts 13:4 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Now, think that passage threw and try to make it fit in b57's worldview. If only those who are predestined to believe ever do so then it was predestined that the Jews would judge themselves unworthy of eternal life, (whatever being predestined to judge yourself unworthy would even mean) and so where is the "necessity" to preach to them at all, never mind first?

There's obviously more to say here but I'm out of time.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Faith to believe in Christ is not of ourselves, because that Faith is that which overcomes the world and believes in the True Christ 1 Jn 5:1-5

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Now the natural man hasnt overcome the world, in fact only One has overcome the world, thats Jesus Christ John 16:33

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Now those for whom He died, receive from Him by the New Birth Faith that overcomes the world, so as in Vs 4, whoever is born of God overcomes the world, which Faith is an evidence of. Believing the Truth about the True Jesus Christ is evidence of one having been born of God Vs 5
 
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