Faith to believe on Christ !

Hoping

Well-known member
As JR said, that is indeed the entire point. Calvinist contradict their own doctrine practically with every breath they take. How many thousands of times a day does a person make a choice? How many times an hour does a person exercise his will?
As I have touched on before, I believe we can live without sinning.
So as they must all be doing ONLY the Lord's will, and not their own will, they must not be sinning either.
Wouldn't you expect?
I am sure the Calvinists have some answer for that too.
Like..."God wants us to commit lies, murders, thefts, and adulteries".
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Belief of the Truth !

Belief of the Truth is part of the Salvation God gives us
, who are His chosen, if we are blessed to be in that number

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief of the Truth here is also Faith, for the word belief here is the same noun used for faith pistis


As you can see this Faith or belief of the Truth is a producing of the Sanctification of the Spirit which is another way of saying the New Birth.
 

marke

Well-known member
Faith isn't a natural attribute of man, its a fruit of the Spirit that God works in the Justified to convince, persuade them of a invisible Spiritual reality.
God gives faith to sinners who believe the truth after they humble themselves at the preaching of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 

beloved57

Well-known member
God gives faith to sinners who believe the truth after they humble themselves at the preaching of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Did you understand post 922 ? Where did belief of the Truth result from according to 2 Thess 2:13 ?
 

marke

Well-known member
Did you understand post 922 ? Where did belief of the Truth result from according to 2 Thess 2:13 ?
I understand we disagree on biblical interpretation, meaning I do not agree with your post 922 that you think is a perfect rendition of the mind of God.
 

Clete

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Belief of the Truth !

Belief of the Truth is part of the Salvation God gives us
, who are His chosen, if we are blessed to be in that number

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief of the Truth here is also Faith, for the word belief here is the same noun used for faith pistis


As you can see this Faith or belief of the Truth is a producing of the Sanctification of the Spirit which is another way of saying the New Birth.
Truth is not contradictory and your doctrine is so contradictory it's laughable. Therefore, your doctrine is not the truth.
Therefore, by your own testimony, you are not saved!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
If faith was something that generated from the flesh and behaviour of man, then no Divine Promises could be sure to all the seed Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 

Hoping

Well-known member
If faith was something that generated from the flesh and behaviour of man, then no Divine Promises could be sure to all the seed Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Your doctrine makes it God's fault that so many will not be judged unrighteous on the last day.
Your doctrine makes sinning God's fault.
 

Clete

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If faith was something that generated from the flesh and behaviour of man, then no Divine Promises could be sure to all the seed Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Outrageous stupidity from every angle. It's an argument that doesn't follow even from its own premises and it is based on false premises to begin with!
 

Clete

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If faith was something that generated from the flesh and behaviour of man, then no Divine Promises could be sure to all the seed Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
No "Divine Promise" (why would those words need to be capitalized???) was ever sure in the idiotic sense that Calvinists want to pretend except to those who love God and respond to Him in faith. No, not even the nation of Israel was guaranteed anything.

In Exodus 32 God is set to destroy Israel for having set up and sacrificed to the golden calf but Moses talked God out of it and so God REPENTED of the harm He said He would do to His people....

Exodus 32: 7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ ” 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”​
11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: “Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ” 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.​
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On a side note: If your bible says "relented" instead of "repented" in that last sentence its because the translators were Calvinists and they simply couldn't bring themselves to translated it correctly. The word used in Hebrew means "repented". Look it up if you don't believe me.

This, by the way, isn't the only time when God said He was going to do something and then changed His mind, (which is what the term "repent" means), the most famous of which is recorded in the book of Jonah. God's change of mind concerning Nineveh and Jonah's foolish response to that change of mind, is the major theme of that entire book. It was the anticipation of God repentance that made Jonah not want to go in the first place!

Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.​
Jonah 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who repents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!”​

Okay, no back to the topic at hand...
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Notice how God could have utterly destroyed every man woman and child in Israel apart from Moses himself and still accomplished His ever goal. The promise made to Abraham would have still been intact and the pathway to the Messiah would have been still fully in view and on track. God, in no way, would have been defeated in regards to the goals He had set for humanity and the plan of salvation. The destruction of Israel would have been a significant bump in the road but nothing more than that so far as God's big picture plans are concerned but there would have been no such person as Jonah or Jeremiah or Ezekiel or Matthew or Mark or John or Peter or even Paul! There wouldn't have been any of the people that we're familiar with today who called themselves Jews. None of those people would have ever existed.

Now, don't take what I'm saying there too far. There still would have been a people of God and they still would have had the Law of Moses and the Messiah would have still come through that nation but the culture would certainly have been altered to some significant degree and it would have been different people with different names that filled the roles of the prophets and apostles that we are familiar with today.

The point here being two fold, that God is not dependent upon a particular person or group to get his goals accomplished and that just because God says He going to do something for or to a nation, doesn't mean that its set in immutable stone. So says God Himself....

Jeremiah 18:7 [God speaking]"The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it."​
Now that might seem harsh, and it certainly goes directly against anything Calvinists will tell you about who God is and how He works, but what also flies directly in the face of Calvinist's ideas about God is that He is LONGSUFFERING and is slow to anger, especially when it comes to Israel's unbelief....

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved​
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:​
My Well-beloved has a vineyard​
On a very fruitful hill.​
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,​
And planted it with the choicest vine.​
He built a tower in its midst,​
And also made a winepress in it;​
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,​
But it brought forth wild grapes.​
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,​
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.​
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:​
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;​
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.​
6 I will lay it waste;​
It shall not be pruned or dug,​
But there shall come up briers and thorns.​
I will also command the clouds​
That they rain no rain on it.”​
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

What was it that God was looking for? What it His glory? What it is majesty? What it for someone to acknowledge His power, knowledge and great size? No, of course it wasn't any of those things at all. God wanted to see justice and righteousness and what He found was the opposite. Was this because God predestined injustice and unrighteousness? Certainly not! He wanted one thing and found its opposite in spite of His efforts to the contrary. So says God Himself, through the mouth of His prophet Isaiah!

If anyone tells you differently, they are lying to you.

Clete

P.S. I just wanted to spend one more moment to point out the way I present scripture vs. the way b57 uses it. When was the last time you ever saw a Calvinist present to you a whole passage of scripture (i.e. more than one or two verses) in order to establish one of his distinctive doctrines? I don't recall them ever doing so. The larger the passage of scripture, the more problems it presents for the Calvinist's worldview. They can quote whole passages if you find one debating creationism and you can find them quoting long passages when writing about the relationship between a man and his wife and children. They'll quote large swaths of scripture when talking about loving your neighbor, witnessing, water baptism, the end times or any number of other topics that Christians commonly talk about but, when they get focused on their distinctive doctrines like immutability, predestination or the TULIP doctrines, all of a sudden, instead of whole passages its single sentences, instead of context it's pretext, instead of exegesis its eisegesis.
 
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beloved57

Well-known member
The Faith to believe in Christ is in and by grace, yeah even the regenerating grace of God Acts 18:27

. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace

This is the Grace of regeneration, the power of God effectually at work. This is insuperable grace that reigns through righteousness effecting a conversion to Jesus Christ. What people fail to realize, is that God's grace isn't a mere sentiment of graciousness that is offered, but the executing of Spiritual power to bring about desired result, hence it is said Grace reigns through righteousness Rom 5:21

21 that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Also notice that its reign is unto eternal life!
 

Clete

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The Faith to believe in Christ is in and by grace, yeah even the regenerating grace of God Acts 18:27

. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace

This is the Grace of regeneration, the power of God effectually at work.
All one has to do to understand the lie b57 is selling here is to read more than one half of one sentence of the bible at a time...
Acts 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.​
So, once again, we see that the proof-texts that b57 cites has nothing to do with the doctrine he's trying to sell.

This is insuperable grace that reigns through righteousness effecting a conversion to Jesus Christ. What people fail to realize, is that God's grace isn't a mere sentiment of graciousness that is offered, but the executing of Spiritual power to bring about desired result, hence it is said Grace reigns through righteousness Rom 5:21
This is just b57 stating his doctrine and pretending like he's made an argument. Romans 5:21 has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Calvinistic "regeneration".

21 that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Also notice that its reign is unto eternal life!
As before, Romans 5:21 only part of a sentence. Not only that, but of all the sentences and phrases that Calvinists quote, the one b57 has chosen comes immediately after one of the sentences that Paul wrote that is almost entirely ignored and never ever quoted by the Calvinist.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​
So, here we see, in opposition to what Calvinists will tell you, that God reconciled the whole world to Himself through Christ. Christ's righteous act corrected the effect of Adam's offense. This passages proves, not only that limited atonement is a false doctrine but also speaks to the blasphemous doctrine of original sin showing how it is that God can say in Ezekiel 18...

Ezekiel18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;​
The soul of the father​
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;​
The soul who sins shall die.​
5 But if a man is just​
And does what is lawful and right;....​
9b He is just;​
He shall surely live!”​
Says the Lord God.​
And so, once again, we find that the phrases and single, out of context, sentences that b57 cites do not teach the doctrines he's here to sell you. Calvinism is a lie. Indeed, it is the worst kind of lie because it doesn't just twist any old kernel of truth but it is an intentional corruption of the very word of God itself.

Don't believe it! God is righteous and just and He loves you like crazy and wants desperately for you to love Him too and has done the work required to make a way for that relationship to happen and He offers it to you freely. All you have to do is believe it and say "yes" to God and accept the gift of His salvation.

Romans 10: 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.​
Clete
 
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beloved57

Well-known member
All one has to do to understand the lie b57 is selling here is to read more than one half of one sentence of the bible at a time...
Acts 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.​
So, once again, we see that the proof-texts that b57 cites has nothing to do with the doctrine he's trying to sell.


This is just b57 stating his doctrine and pretending like he's made an argument. Romans 5:21 has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Calvinistic "regeneration".


As before, Romans 5:21 only part of a sentence. Not only that, but of all the sentences and phrases that Calvinists quote, the one b57 has chosen comes immediately after one of the sentences that Paul wrote that is almost entirely ignored and never ever quoted by the Calvinist.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​
So, here we see, in opposition to what Calvinists will tell you, that God reconciled the whole world to Himself through Christ. Christ's righteous act corrected the effect of Adam's offense. This passages proves, not only that limited atonement is a false doctrine but also speaks to the blasphemous doctrine of original sin showing how it is that God can say in Ezekiel 18...

Ezekiel18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;​
The soul of the father​
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;​
The soul who sins shall die.​
5 But if a man is just​
And does what is lawful and right;....​
9b He is just;​
He shall surely live!”​
Says the Lord God.​
And so, once again, we find that the phrases and single, out of context, sentences that b57 cites do not teach the doctrines he's here to sell you. Calvinism is a lie. Indeed, it is the worst kind of lie because it doesn't just twist any old kernel of truth but it is an intentional corruption of the very word of God itself.

Don't believe it! God is righteous and just and He loves you like crazy and wants desperately for you to love Him too and has done the work required to make a way for that relationship to happen and He offers it to you freely. All you have to do is believe it and say "yes" to God and accept the gift of His salvation.

Romans 10: 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.​
Clete
Im focusing on the part that says Grace reigns through righteousness. Thats regenerating grace that quickens from death
 

Clete

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Im focusing on the part that says Grace reigns through righteousness. Thats regenerating grace that quickens from death
Saying it doesn't make it so and focusing on one part of a sentence in order to use it as a pretext for your doctrine is the very definition of taking something out of context. That method of "bible study" is how cults get made and sustained.

Thank you for conceding the debate.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Saying it doesn't make it so and focusing on one part of a sentence in order to use it as a pretext for your doctrine is the very definition of taking something out of context. That method of "bible study" is how cults get made and sustained.

Thank you for conceding the debate.
So you dont believe that Grace reigns through righteousness just as death reigned though sin ? Rom 5:21

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

Clete

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So you dont believe that Grace reigns through righteousness just as death reigned though sin ? Rom 5:21

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Not in the way you mean it, no! There isn't hardly two syllables of the English language that pertains to any Christian doctrine that you Calvinists haven't redefined so as to force it to fit into your asinine doctrine. Every word you speak is loaded with meanings that are not appearant to the uninitiated listener. And, you haven't any idea what the word grace means at all! In your head the word gets twisted around to mean "arbitrary predestination", which means that grace is just as much about who goes to Hell as it has to do with people being saved from it. It's utterly meaningless gibberish that hasn't anything at all to do with what God is saying in His word!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Not in the way you mean it, no! There isn't hardly two syllables of the English language that pertains to any Christian doctrine that you Calvinists haven't redefined so as to force it to fit into your asinine doctrine. Every word you speak is loaded with meanings that are not appearant to the uninitiated listener. And, you haven't any idea what the word grace means at all! In your head the word gets twisted around to mean "arbitrary predestination", which means that grace is just as much about who goes to Hell as it has to do with people being saved from it. It's utterly meaningless gibberish that hasn't anything at all to do with what God is saying in His word!
So how do you believe grace reigns versus how death reigns.
 

Clete

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So how do you believe grace reigns versus how death reigns.
In exactly the way in which the passage itself says. All you have to do is read it and take it to mean what the normal meanings of the words would imply.

That, unfortunately for you, means that it won't work for you. Your mind is broken. You've been brain-washed to the point that you can no longer read the English language and understand it to mean what any non-Calvinist would understand it to mean.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
In exactly the way in which the passage itself says. All you have to do is read it and take it to mean what the normal meanings of the words would imply.

That, unfortunately for you, means that it won't work for you. Your mind is broken. You've been brain-washed to the point that you can no longer read the English language and understand it to mean what any non-Calvinist would understand it to mean.
Can we resist the reign of death ? Isn't grace superior to death ?
 

Clete

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Can we resist the reign of death ? Isn't grace superior to death ?
Boy oh boy what a gem of stupidity that post is!
Do you understand what "begging the question" means?

You need to look it up because you do it constantly without even realizing you're doing it. You've never been taught how to think in a manner that is consistent with either your previous thoughts or with reality. You have literally been brain washed. You make connections that are not only not supported by the actual text of scripture but that aren't there at all. You somehow manage to squeeze your doctrine into the very meaning of the words themselves and THEN try to say that the words make an argument that supports your doctrine. It is simply the most circular kind of reasoning that I think is possible to pull off. You're literally no different than any cult leader you want to name. They use the same tactics and the same sort of twisted "logic" that you demonstrate here on a daily basis.
 
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