ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

Bright Raven

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Justification and sanctified are the same, they happen the same time for the same reason.
From carm.org

Justification and Sanctification: What is the Difference?
by Matt Slick
11/23/08

Understanding the difference between justification and sanctification can be as important as understanding the difference between salvation and damnation. Rightly dividing between the two is of crucial importance. When you understand what they are, you can then draw a line in the sand and say, "This is what saves. This is not what saves."

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner, so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified.

Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts.

Now, there is one more point of clarification. To sanctify also means to set apart for holy use. Therefore, we can have verses that talk about us being sanctified already because God has set us apart for holy use.

John 10:36, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"
Rom. 15:16, "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, that my offering of the Gentiles might become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit."
1 Cor. 1:2, "to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."
1 Cor. 6:11, "And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."
1 Tim. 4:4-5, "For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer."
Heb. 2:11, "For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren."
All that we need is given to us in Christ. So there is one sense in which we are not yet completely formed into the image of Christ (sanctification of being made like Jesus), yet in another sense, we are because we are seen as "in Christ" and set apart for holy use where all our spiritual needs and purposes are met through Jesus.

Does this mean those justified by grace can sin as much as they want?
Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?"

1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification."

The Scriptures teach us that we are to live holy lives and avoid sin (Col. 1:5-11). Just because we are saved and eternally justified before God (John 10:28), that is no excuse to continue in the sin from which we were saved. Of course, we all sin (Rom. 3:23); but the war between the saved and sin is continuous (Rom. 7:14-20), and it won't be until the return of Jesus that we will be delivered from this body of death (Rom. 7:24). To seek sin continually and use God's grace to excuse it later is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot (Heb. 10:29) and to reveal the person's true sinful, unsaved nature (1 John 2:4; 2:19). Other verses worth checking out are: Heb. 12:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; and 1 Pet. 2:21-22.

What the cults do with justification and sanctification
The cults consistently blur the meanings of the two terms and misapply the truths taught in God's word. The result is a theology of works' righteousness--of earning their salvation, which only leads to damnation. This is because by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16). Man cannot contribute to his salvation (Gal. 5:1-8). Man is sinful, and even his best deeds are stained and filthy before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, making a person right before God can only be God's work (Gal. 2:20).

Typically, in cult theologies, a person is not justified (declared righteous in God's eyes) until the final day of judgment when his works are weighed, and a reward is given; or he is found worthy of his place with God. Thus, a person with this errant theology can not claim 1 John 5:13 as his own which says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Contextually, "These things" refer to loving God, being obedient to Him, belief in Christ, and eternal life in Jesus. Therefore, 1 John 5:13 can be considered a test. If you are believing and doing the right things, then you will know if you have eternal life. Can a cultist know he has eternal life? No, he cannot; but a Christian can.

People in cults don't understand the difference between justification and sanctification. Therefore, they must depend upon a cooperative effort with God to have their sins forgiven, which is, essentially, combining the filthy works of man (Isaiah 64:6) with the holy work of God. They don't mix. They can't. Hence, salvation is by grace through faith alone. To believe anything else is to miss salvation.
 

God's Truth

New member
From carm.org

Justification and Sanctification: What is the Difference?
by Matt Slick
11/23/08

Understanding the difference between justification and sanctification can be as important as understanding the difference between salvation and damnation. Rightly dividing between the two is of crucial importance. When you understand what they are, you can then draw a line in the sand and say, "This is what saves. This is not what saves."

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner, so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified.

Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts.

Now, there is one more point of clarification. To sanctify also means to set apart for holy use. Therefore, we can have verses that talk about us being sanctified already because God has set us apart for holy use.

John 10:36, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"
Rom. 15:16, "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, that my offering of the Gentiles might become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit."
1 Cor. 1:2, "to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."
1 Cor. 6:11, "And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."
1 Tim. 4:4-5, "For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer."
Heb. 2:11, "For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren."
All that we need is given to us in Christ. So there is one sense in which we are not yet completely formed into the image of Christ (sanctification of being made like Jesus), yet in another sense, we are because we are seen as "in Christ" and set apart for holy use where all our spiritual needs and purposes are met through Jesus.

Does this mean those justified by grace can sin as much as they want?
Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?"

1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification."

The Scriptures teach us that we are to live holy lives and avoid sin (Col. 1:5-11). Just because we are saved and eternally justified before God (John 10:28), that is no excuse to continue in the sin from which we were saved. Of course, we all sin (Rom. 3:23); but the war between the saved and sin is continuous (Rom. 7:14-20), and it won't be until the return of Jesus that we will be delivered from this body of death (Rom. 7:24). To seek sin continually and use God's grace to excuse it later is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot (Heb. 10:29) and to reveal the person's true sinful, unsaved nature (1 John 2:4; 2:19). Other verses worth checking out are: Heb. 12:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; and 1 Pet. 2:21-22.

What the cults do with justification and sanctification
The cults consistently blur the meanings of the two terms and misapply the truths taught in God's word. The result is a theology of works' righteousness--of earning their salvation, which only leads to damnation. This is because by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16). Man cannot contribute to his salvation (Gal. 5:1-8). Man is sinful, and even his best deeds are stained and filthy before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, making a person right before God can only be God's work (Gal. 2:20).

Typically, in cult theologies, a person is not justified (declared righteous in God's eyes) until the final day of judgment when his works are weighed, and a reward is given; or he is found worthy of his place with God. Thus, a person with this errant theology can not claim 1 John 5:13 as his own which says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Contextually, "These things" refer to loving God, being obedient to Him, belief in Christ, and eternal life in Jesus. Therefore, 1 John 5:13 can be considered a test. If you are believing and doing the right things, then you will know if you have eternal life. Can a cultist know he has eternal life? No, he cannot; but a Christian can.

People in cults don't understand the difference between justification and sanctification. Therefore, they must depend upon a cooperative effort with God to have their sins forgiven, which is, essentially, combining the filthy works of man (Isaiah 64:6) with the holy work of God. They don't mix. They can't. Hence, salvation is by grace through faith alone. To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

Hello BR, with all due respect, I must say that I do not go by anything Matt Slick says. He is a Calvinist.
 

jsanford108

New member
I addressed your question. I told you exactly what the Bible reveals about the eternal security enjoyed by Christians. It was you who did not attempt to address the verses which I quoted which proves it.



In any capacity? You did not say even one single word about any of those verses. Why not?



I addressed that earlier and you made no objections. We can see that James believed that a person is born of God by the word of truth alone:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​



If you are not going to even attempt to address the verses which I quoted then just admit that you do not have an intelligent answer to them.



Then please give me your interpretation of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse free from doctrinal bias:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

Okay, here goes.

Christ does give us eternal life. No one goes to hell except by their own desire.

Is Christ is speaking of a life on earth or the eternal? A life eternal. A simple reading reveals two things: 1- Once we have received eternal life (ie- are in heaven), we shall never be plucked from it. 2- That which Christ says is unchanging and eternally binding.

Every time you have questioned me, I have answered. And if I did not, I provided a reason. A simple examination of my last post reveals that. And rather than answering simply, you provide verses. Why not just answer? It is because the answers will contradict Scripture and create hypocrisy within your doctrine.

You did not address my quote of James saying "man is justified by works and not by faith alone." You just provided a verse where James speaks of faith and the eternal. That doesn't answer a question. That avoids a question by throwing up smoke and mirrors, trying to give the illusion that the verse provided proves your point, when in fact, it does not. The question remained unanswered.

Anytime I chose not to address something, as stated before, it was due to one of two reasons. 1.) The verse did not add to or subtract from either of our arguments. 2.) The argument paired with the verse did not derive knowledge from the verse, rather read doctrinal bias into the verse (for lack of better terminology; twisting the verse to fit one's ideas and ideals).
 

God's Truth

New member
:dizzy: You plan to clean yourself up before you come to the Lord? :reals: He'll be here before then. :hammer:

The message that saves is sent for those who fear God and do right.

Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Those are the people who come into the light.

We are to believe that Jesus' blood cleans/justifies/sanctifies us of the sins we repent of doing.

Then we live up to that.

Philippians 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
 

Right Divider

Body part
John 8:51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death."

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

Psalm 119:100 I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts.

Proverbs 3:32 For the LORD detests the perverse but takes the upright into his confidence.

Proverbs 1:23 Repent at my rebuke! Then I will pour out my thoughts to you, I will make known to you my teachings.

See Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.
Once AGAIN... you always quote the books related to Israel and their LAW.

You refuse to accept the gospel of the grace of God, which Paul preached.

Rom 5:19 (KJV)
(5:19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You don't accept the righteousness of the ONE!
 

Bright Raven

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Hello BR, with all due respect, I must say that I do not go by anything Matt Slick says. He is a Calvinist.

Try these

Summary of differences:
Justification is a one-time act of God, which makes it complete and finished.(14) Sanctification is a continual process since a believer is completely freed from sin until the day of resurrection.
Justification addresses the sinner’s guilt for committing sins. Sanctification addresses sin’s power and corruption over a believer’s life.
Justification is God’s declaration that a sinner is righteous through the work of Jesus Christ. Sanctification is God’s transformation of a believer’s whole being, that is the mind, will, behaviors, and affections through the work of the Holy Spirit.
To be justified, your good works are immaterial. To be sanctified, your good works are a necessary evidence of your faith in Christ, which the Holy Spirit enables you to do as you continually die everyday in your sin.
Justification gives you the privilege as well as the boldness to enter heaven. Sanctification gives you the meekness for heaven, and allows you to fully take joy in abiding there.


From difference between.net
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Nope. You got it all figured out your way and your mind is snapped shut. Sorry, I'm not interested.


Hi and with out blood , there is no FORGIVENESS of sin , is that wrong ??

I see no rewARDS for you as written in 1 Cor 3:10-15 , and you are doing a good JOB of SCUTTLING your life , good job !!

dan p
 

God's Truth

New member
Try these

Summary of differences:
Justification is a one-time act of God, which makes it complete and finished.(14) Sanctification is a continual process since a believer is completely freed from sin until the day of resurrection.

Jesus lives to intercede for us (Hebrews 7:25).

Justification addresses the sinner’s guilt for committing sins. Sanctification addresses sin’s power and corruption over a believer’s life.
Justification is God’s declaration that a sinner is righteous through the work of Jesus Christ. Sanctification is God’s transformation of a believer’s whole being, that is the mind, will, behaviors, and affections through the work of the Holy Spirit.
To be justified, your good works are immaterial.

To obey Jesus' words are works that bring Spirit and life.

To be sanctified, your good works are a necessary evidence of your faith in Christ, which the Holy Spirit enables you to do as you continually die everyday in your sin.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Justification gives you the privilege as well as the boldness to enter heaven. Sanctification gives you the meekness for heaven, and allows you to fully take joy in abiding there.
From difference between.net

The blood of Jesus sanctifies us Hebrews 2:11; 10:10; 29.

We are justified because we have faith that Jesus' blood cleans/sanctifies us.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

That could very well have said For it is with our heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are sanctified, saved.

Now here is where one can enter many false teachings, for one must realize what used to sanctify the people of God. What used to sanctify the people of God were all the purification/ceremonial works.

Those are the works that no longer save. They did not require faith, they required a person cleaning themselves with rituals using food and the blood of animals.
 

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
First you say that salvation is by grace through faith. And then you say that only those who obey Him receive his Spirit. Please answer Paul's question here:

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:2-3).
Justification and sanctification are two different things. Get yourself a Savior (Rom. 3:26, 27).
 

Cross Reference

New member
So are you saying that someone can be born again but at the same time he is not saved?

Whatever you think I am saying you will just have to be content with.

I'll say no more to you or anyone like you who reads not for understanding but only to rebut what the other person is saying.

You need to get saved, nevermind being born again.

Bye.
 

God's Truth

New member
Once AGAIN... you always quote the books related to Israel and their LAW.
Jesus came and gave the guidelines and rules for the New Covenant.
Jesus is Lord over all and he says his words ARE LIFE and he says if you obey you will have life. That is to everyone.

You refuse to accept the gospel of the grace of God, which Paul preached.

Rom 5:19 (KJV)
(5:19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You don't accept the righteousness of the ONE!

It isn't grace to say obeying Jesus' words are not needed, or not for us.

Jesus obeyed so that we have someone to obey.

John 5:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.
 

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
...f someone truly believes he will not live however he wants to live but instead in the way which the LORD wants him to live.


How is it that you
quoties.gif
want to [your words] live? :AMR: Luke 15:11–32
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
This is an excellent question, and that is where venial and mortal sin come into play.

There is an obvious inherent weight to different sins. A white lie is not as heavy a sin as killing someone. We all agree on this. So being slightly immersed would not weigh as much (unless you are slightly immersed in sexual sin or murder or extreme theft etc). Venial sins merit purgatory, according to Catholics, which is a temporary cleansing. Once that is complete, then one would enter heaven.

Now if the "slight immersion" was a unrepentant mortal sin, such as those mentioned before, then hell awaits.

Now, I am unworthy to judge. And there are graces that God can impart at any moment, if He pleases. So maybe in a last moment, one becomes contrite and wishes to repent, but maybe lacks the time and mental capability (due to bodily failures onset at death), then I am sure God will be merciful. After all, He does love us. But for the unrepentant mortal sinner, God is infinite love, but He is also infinite mercy. Thus, chances are good they may simmer.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

If that's true then Jesus didn't die for all sin....only those that fit a certain standard that no man seems to know.

It's why God has offered man the free gift of salvation when he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is real mercy and grace, and that is what He will show in the ages to come.

Eph. 2:5-9
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​
 
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