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How 'bout he simply "exalts" the Law because it exposes sin for what it is instead of "promoting it" for salvation?
ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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How 'bout he simply "exalts" the Law because it exposes sin for what it is instead of "promoting it" for salvation?
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April 27th [MUHH devotional]
What do you want?
"Seekest thou great things for thyself?" Jeremiah 45:5.
Are you seeking great things for yourself? Not seeking to be a great one, but seeking great things from God for yourself. God wants you in a closer relationship to Himself than receiving His gifts, He wants you to get to know Him. A great thing is accidental, it comes and goes. God never gives us anything accidental. Nothing is easier than getting into a right relationship with God except when it is not God Whom you want but only what He gives.
If you have only come the length of asking God for things, you have never come to the first strand of abandonment, you have become a Christian from a standpoint of your own. ‘I did ask God for the Holy Spirit, but He did not give me the rest and the peace I expected.’ Instantly God puts His finger on the reason—you are not seeking the Lord at all, you are seeking something for yourself. Jesus says—“Ask, and it shall be given you.” Ask God for what you want, and you cannot ask if you are not asking for a right thing. When you draw near to God, you cease from asking for things. “Your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him.” Then why ask? That you may get to know Him.
Are you seeking great things for yourself—‘O Lord, baptize me with the Holy Ghost’? If God does not, it is because you are not abandoned enough to Him, there is something you will not do. Are you prepared to ask yourself what it is you want from God, and why you want it? God always ignores the present perfection for the ultimate perfection. He is not concerned about making you blessed and happy just now; He is working out His ultimate perfection all the time—“that they may be one even as We are.”
Oswald Chambers
What do you want?
"Seekest thou great things for thyself?" Jeremiah 45:5.
Are you seeking great things for yourself? Not seeking to be a great one, but seeking great things from God for yourself. God wants you in a closer relationship to Himself than receiving His gifts, He wants you to get to know Him. A great thing is accidental, it comes and goes. God never gives us anything accidental. Nothing is easier than getting into a right relationship with God except when it is not God Whom you want but only what He gives.
If you have only come the length of asking God for things, you have never come to the first strand of abandonment, you have become a Christian from a standpoint of your own. ‘I did ask God for the Holy Spirit, but He did not give me the rest and the peace I expected.’ Instantly God puts His finger on the reason—you are not seeking the Lord at all, you are seeking something for yourself. Jesus says—“Ask, and it shall be given you.” Ask God for what you want, and you cannot ask if you are not asking for a right thing. When you draw near to God, you cease from asking for things. “Your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him.” Then why ask? That you may get to know Him.
Are you seeking great things for yourself—‘O Lord, baptize me with the Holy Ghost’? If God does not, it is because you are not abandoned enough to Him, there is something you will not do. Are you prepared to ask yourself what it is you want from God, and why you want it? God always ignores the present perfection for the ultimate perfection. He is not concerned about making you blessed and happy just now; He is working out His ultimate perfection all the time—“that they may be one even as We are.”
Oswald Chambers
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are you willing to argue that a person must change his sinful lifestyle even before hearing the gospel in order to be saved?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why don't you try believing what they say?
Paul:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).
According to your ideas the gospel by itself is not the "the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." According to you a person must do other things besides believe to be saved.
Peter:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
A person is born again by the word of God, the gospel. If it takes more than that then why didn't Peter mention anything else?
James:
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1;18).
That is the same truth which Peter preached about the new birth. But according to your ideas it is impossible to be born again by just the gospel.
The Lord Jesus:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
According to your ideas no one can inherit eternal life just by believing.
jsanford108
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This is an excellent question, and that is where venial and mortal sin come into play.
There is an obvious inherent weight to different sins. A white lie is not as heavy a sin as killing someone. We all agree on this. So being slightly immersed would not weigh as much (unless you are slightly immersed in sexual sin or murder or extreme theft etc). Venial sins merit purgatory, according to Catholics, which is a temporary cleansing. Once that is complete, then one would enter heaven.
Now if the "slight immersion" was a unrepentant mortal sin, such as those mentioned before, then hell awaits.
Now, I am unworthy to judge. And there are graces that God can impart at any moment, if He pleases. So maybe in a last moment, one becomes contrite and wishes to repent, but maybe lacks the time and mental capability (due to bodily failures onset at death), then I am sure God will be merciful. After all, He does love us. But for the unrepentant mortal sinner, God is infinite love, but He is also infinite mercy. Thus, chances are good they may simmer.
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jsanford108
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Faith + Obedience = Salvation?
Jerry,
This is the classical moment when those who hold the faith alone doctrine reach a logical contradiction.
You say "I cannot think of a time when a true believer can lose his salvation." Of course you used the phrase "true believer." Because if a man you went to church with suddenly began to gravely sin, then the excuse is "he wasn't a true believer." Despite all the fruits he has shown before this time. All of a sudden, these phrases of "not a true believer" and "he wasn't really saved" appear, when mere months before it was "that man is saved" and "oh what great faith he has." How could he one moment have been a saint, but the next "not really be saved?" It is a contradiction of the faith alone doctrine, that is actually forced upon those who hold it, because "a person cannot lose their salvation."
So what happens if I am devout in every sense, except that I love to steal. I do it unrepentantly. But I have all the fruits of a true faith alone Christian. And I know that Christ has paid for all my sins. Do I go to heaven?
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Jerry,
This is the classical moment when those who hold the faith alone doctrine reach a logical contradiction.
You say "I cannot think of a time when a true believer can lose his salvation." Of course you used the phrase "true believer." Because if a man you went to church with suddenly began to gravely sin, then the excuse is "he wasn't a true believer." Despite all the fruits he has shown before this time. All of a sudden, these phrases of "not a true believer" and "he wasn't really saved" appear, when mere months before it was "that man is saved" and "oh what great faith he has." How could he one moment have been a saint, but the next "not really be saved?" It is a contradiction of the faith alone doctrine, that is actually forced upon those who hold it, because "a person cannot lose their salvation."
So what happens if I am devout in every sense, except that I love to steal. I do it unrepentantly. But I have all the fruits of a true faith alone Christian. And I know that Christ has paid for all my sins. Do I go to heaven?
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We should all obey God 100% of the time. You will NOT receive eternal life by obeying God.
God opens the eyes of those who believe.
Peter said to be baptized for the remission of sin. The penalty for sin is death. We bury the sinful person in a watery grave and emerge as a new being, a spirit being by being resurrected with Christ for a new life with him.
Paul explained, "For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin." (Romans 6:5-7)
The penalty for sin is death. If we die with Christ we will have paid our debt to sin.
Those in the second resurrection will have also paid their debt to sin apart from Jesus Christ. They did not die with Christ and were not raised at the first resurrection but they are not raised as sinful. He who has died is freed from sin. They have a clean slate having paid their debt.
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You do NOT know whether your co-worker is saved and neither do I.
But regardless, obedience is NOT the measure of salvation.
Many who appear "obedient" are not saved.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
jsanford, in case you didn't notice it you ignored every verse which I mentioned. Why did you not address the verses which I quoted?
Do you not believe the Lord Jesus when he said that to those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish?
Do you not believe Him when He says that He will not cast out those whom the Father gave to Him?
Do you not believe that all of those who have been given eternal life will be resurrected in the last day?
The only thing which you did address is this:
Why would I want to do that? I have already given you plenty of evidence that once a person believes he possesses eternal life and the Lord and Savior said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish.
Who told you not to believe the Lord Jesus when He said that?
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You might also want to consider that in Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking exclusively to and about Christians [disciples] when illustrating and giving His warnings/cautions.
Unbelievers will never understand what He is talking about.
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He must before he is born again.
There is no direct indication this post was directed at you personally. You took it personal for reasons apparent more to you than to me.
Again you make assumptions on my first port about leading horses to water, but not being able to make them drink. Why do you assume my thoughts were you are one of the horses? Why do you feel the guilt?
This post has not meaning because it is not relevant to any previously topic, other than your own believed assumptions about my original statement. As such, you are being hostile for no apparent reason. Essentially, you are being a pest.
Again you have nothing meaningful to say, so you become hostile and disruptive; again, being a pest.
It seems to me, you have devolved from a fair poster, into a defensive troll-like pest. What happened to you? :idunno:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to your idea a person must change his sinful lifestyle before he even hears the gospel if he is going to be saved. Had Paul ceased from his threatenings and slaughter against the disciple of the Lord Jesus prior to the time when he believed and was born again?
jsanford108
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The reason I did not address the verses is because your arguments are examples of Eisegesis. While the verses are true, the conclusions which you claim are derived from them are not. You are placing meaning into them, rather than from them.
I think the reason you didn't want to address my question is because it forces you to contradict your doctrine. Those who hold to faith alone use terms loosely, because they have to. But they hold opponents to strict terminology. That is hypocritical.
And if you think that I avoided the verses in any capacity, I apologize. I did not see that they aided or hindered either of our arguments. Maybe that is how you felt about my quotes of James, which clearly stated that man is not saved by faith alone.
If we have reached an impasse, I understand. I think you have utilized the same verses I have heard all my life for defense of faith alone. The issue is that those verses, in context with the entirety of Scripture, do not lead to faith alone stances. Faith alone believers read what they desire into those verses. And I know that you are probably rubbing your temples saying "how can he not understand what is so clear?!" The only answer I can provide is that I read Scriptures as they are written. Free from doctrinal bias.
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jsanford108
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Thank you, friend. I do know this, but in order to lead those who are firmly rooted in bias, one must tread slowly, opening doors as they appear (this is a paraphrasing of CS Lewis in "Mere Christianity," in case that sounded familiar).
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Nope. You misinterpreted what I wrote. Read it again. I spoke of being born again after having counted the cost before Jesus chose me. If you are born again, He chose you as well. You didn't choose Him. You merely accepted His "Gracous Gift of salvation" The afterwards is to find out if you were serious.
Jesus is coming again for a purified people who, having entered the process of becoming so, salvation TO them was the first step in making it happen per John 17:3.
Changing/rejecting a sinful lifestyle happens because of a new love affair with Jesus which is brought on by the new birth [not magical] per John 3:3 and 5 KJV, evidence of which is NOT an automatic but by overcoming one's flesh is it accomplished. Nicodemus came to that understanding by visiting Jesus who explained the issues to him.
Read this verse prayerfully:
"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently" 1 Peter 1:23,24 (KJV)
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God being infinite love speaks of unconditonal love. Is that how you understand Him?
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12 (KJV)
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Jerry Shugart
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I addressed your question. I told you exactly what the Bible reveals about the eternal security enjoyed by Christians. It was you who did not attempt to address the verses which I quoted which proves it.
In any capacity? You did not say even one single word about any of those verses. Why not?
I addressed that earlier and you made no objections. We can see that James believed that a person is born of God by the word of truth alone:
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).
If you are not going to even attempt to address the verses which I quoted then just admit that you do not have an intelligent answer to them.
Then please give me your interpretation of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse free from doctrinal bias:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Earlier you said that a person must change his sinful lifestyle before he is born again.