God's Truth
New member
He should be able to answer for himself.
ECT FAITH ALONE: DID JESUS TEACH IT?
- Thread starter Cruciform
- Start date
He should be able to answer for himself.
Lol you have just answered for him :doh:
Interplanner
Well-known member
I was doubting that TOL would stop the links he mentioned.
If you mean Cruciform; he posts links all the time.
Cruciform
New member
Two facts:
[1] The Catholic Church is in no way a "denomination." If you actually knew anything about the history of the Christian Church, you wouldn't have made such a blunder.
[2] The Catholic Church existed before the New Testament documents and the biblical canon, having herself produced the former and canonized the latter.
[2] The Catholic Church existed before the New Testament documents and the biblical canon, having herself produced the former and canonized the latter.
Again, message me with your question, and I'll be glad to provide the information you requested. If I post it here, I'll get banned. If this frustrates you, you'll have to take it up with the admins.
God's Truth
New member
It is a denomination. There is no such 'Catholic church' in the Bible. The churches were named after the city and the believers met in homes.
Most the New Testament are letters that the people read and shared with each other. How do you ever get that the Catholic church existed before the letters?
The Catholic denominations started to introduce heresies in approximately 310 A.D. The Roman Catholic Church, which taught things contrary to the Bible, began with the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. The Catholics continued to bring in many false teachings.
Official canonization of the New Testament scriptures came about because of heresies Gnostics and other sects spread. The first Christians accepted as scripture New Testament teachings by letter and books right from the beginning.
Just answer here in your own words how you obey Jesus when he says call no man 'father'.
Cruciform
New member
Again, your ignorance of Christian history is tripping you up. The fact is that the one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself was---by the end of the first century---already commonly known as "the Catholic Church." Sorry for your confusion.
The simple fact that St. Paul addressed his letters to, for example, "the church of God which is at Corinth" makes it clear that the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament documents. For an excellent treatment of Church history, see the following text:
[Click on title above]
The Church produced the Bible not vice-versa. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura overlooks – or at least grossly underemphasizes – the fact that the Church came before the Bible, and not the other way around. It was the Church, in effect, which wrote the Bible under the inspiration of Almighty God: the Israelites as the Old Testament Church (or "pre-Catholics") and the early Catholics as the New Testament Church.
In the pages of the New Testament we note that Our Lord gives a certain primacy to the teaching authority of His Church and its proclamation in His name. For instance, in Matthew 28:20 we see Our Lord commissioning the Apostles to go and teach in His name, making disciples of all nations. In Mark 16:15 we note that the Apostles are commanded to go and preach to all the world. And in Luke 10:16 we see that whoever hears the seventy-two hears Our Lord. These facts are most telling, as nowhere do we see Our Lord commissioning His Apostles to evangelize the world by writing in His name. The emphasis is always on preaching the Gospel, not on printing and distributing it.
Thus it follows that the leadership and teaching authority of the Church are indispensable elements in the means whereby the Gospel message is to reach the ends of the earth. Since the Church produced the scriptures, it is quite biblical, logical and reasonable to say that the Church alone has the authority to interpret properly and apply them. And if this is so, then by reason of its origin and nature, the Bible cannot serve as the only rule of faith for Christian believers. In other words, by producing the Scriptures, the Church does not eliminate the need for itself as teacher and interpreter of those Scriptures.
Moreover, is it not unreasonable to say that simply by putting Apostolic teaching into writing, the Church somehow made that written teaching superior to her oral teaching? Like the teaching organization Our Lord established, His Word is authoritative, but because the word is one form rather than another does not mean one form is to be subjugated to the other. Since God’s one Revelation is twofold in form, to deny the authority of one form would be to deny the authority of the other form as well. The forms of God’s Word are complementary, not competitive. Thus, if there is a need for the Scriptures, there is also a need for the teaching authority which produced them.
In the pages of the New Testament we note that Our Lord gives a certain primacy to the teaching authority of His Church and its proclamation in His name. For instance, in Matthew 28:20 we see Our Lord commissioning the Apostles to go and teach in His name, making disciples of all nations. In Mark 16:15 we note that the Apostles are commanded to go and preach to all the world. And in Luke 10:16 we see that whoever hears the seventy-two hears Our Lord. These facts are most telling, as nowhere do we see Our Lord commissioning His Apostles to evangelize the world by writing in His name. The emphasis is always on preaching the Gospel, not on printing and distributing it.
Thus it follows that the leadership and teaching authority of the Church are indispensable elements in the means whereby the Gospel message is to reach the ends of the earth. Since the Church produced the scriptures, it is quite biblical, logical and reasonable to say that the Church alone has the authority to interpret properly and apply them. And if this is so, then by reason of its origin and nature, the Bible cannot serve as the only rule of faith for Christian believers. In other words, by producing the Scriptures, the Church does not eliminate the need for itself as teacher and interpreter of those Scriptures.
Moreover, is it not unreasonable to say that simply by putting Apostolic teaching into writing, the Church somehow made that written teaching superior to her oral teaching? Like the teaching organization Our Lord established, His Word is authoritative, but because the word is one form rather than another does not mean one form is to be subjugated to the other. Since God’s one Revelation is twofold in form, to deny the authority of one form would be to deny the authority of the other form as well. The forms of God’s Word are complementary, not competitive. Thus, if there is a need for the Scriptures, there is also a need for the teaching authority which produced them.
Already answered.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
God's Truth
New member
Again, your ignorance of Christian history is tripping you up. The fact is that the one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself was---by the end of the first century---already commonly known as "the Catholic Church." Sorry for your confusion.
The simple fact that St. Paul addressed his letters to, for example, "the church of God which is at Corinth" makes it clear that the Church existed prior to the writing of the New Testament documents. For an excellent treatment of Church history, see the following text:
[Click on title above]
The Church produced the Bible not vice-versa. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura overlooks – or at least grossly underemphasizes – the fact that the Church came before the Bible, and not the other way around. It was the Church, in effect, which wrote the Bible under the inspiration of Almighty God: the Israelites as the Old Testament Church (or "pre-Catholics") and the early Catholics as the New Testament Church.
In the pages of the New Testament we note that Our Lord gives a certain primacy to the teaching authority of His Church and its proclamation in His name. For instance, in Matthew 28:20 we see Our Lord commissioning the Apostles to go and teach in His name, making disciples of all nations. In Mark 16:15 we note that the Apostles are commanded to go and preach to all the world. And in Luke 10:16 we see that whoever hears the seventy-two hears Our Lord. These facts are most telling, as nowhere do we see Our Lord commissioning His Apostles to evangelize the world by writing in His name. The emphasis is always on preaching the Gospel, not on printing and distributing it.
Thus it follows that the leadership and teaching authority of the Church are indispensable elements in the means whereby the Gospel message is to reach the ends of the earth. Since the Church produced the scriptures, it is quite biblical, logical and reasonable to say that the Church alone has the authority to interpret properly and apply them. And if this is so, then by reason of its origin and nature, the Bible cannot serve as the only rule of faith for Christian believers. In other words, by producing the Scriptures, the Church does not eliminate the need for itself as teacher and interpreter of those Scriptures.
Moreover, is it not unreasonable to say that simply by putting Apostolic teaching into writing, the Church somehow made that written teaching superior to her oral teaching? Like the teaching organization Our Lord established, His Word is authoritative, but because the word is one form rather than another does not mean one form is to be subjugated to the other. Since God’s one Revelation is twofold in form, to deny the authority of one form would be to deny the authority of the other form as well. The forms of God’s Word are complementary, not competitive. Thus, if there is a need for the Scriptures, there is also a need for the teaching authority which produced them.
Already answered.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
The Catholic church did not exist until much later; much later, after the first churches that were in people's homes and named after the city in which they lived.
The Catholic denomination started to introduce heresies in approximately 310 A.D. The Roman Catholic Church, which taught things contrary to the Bible, began with the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. The Catholics continued to bring in many false teachings.
Cruciform
New member
It wasn't commonly called "the Catholic Church" until later---but it existed from the very beginning. The history of the Christian faith is clear on this point.
The sign of the cross is not a doctrine, but rather a practice (a type of gestural prayer that comes straight from the Bible), and has been used by Christians from the beginning. Prayers for the dead was practiced by the Jews, and extended into the New Covenant; believers have offered prayers for the dead from the beginning as well. If you want proof, message me and I'll be glad to provide it.
God's Truth
New member
What was it called before it went apostate?
It matters what we do and teach.
Cruciform
New member
Christ's one historic Catholic Church has never "apostated," nor could it, unless Jesus himself lied in Matthew 16:18 and 1 Tim. 3:15. Thus, your implicit claim here is that Jesus Christ is a liar (Prov. 19:5). Want to try again?
Indeed it does. And the teachings that we believe are to be received from the apostles/bishops of Christ's one historic Church, not invented by mere laymen like yourself. The Church (the bishops in communion with the Pope) possesses the doctrinal authority of Jesus Christ himself; the laity simply does not. Might as well get used to that fact.
way 2 go
Well-known member
no, Jesus taught keep the law
Mat_19:17 And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.
Paul said the law is for those under it.
if your a Christian you are not under Law,
but under grace and justified by faith.
Rom_3:19 But we know that whatever things the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law; so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be under judgment before God,
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.
Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.
God's Truth
New member
The Catholic denomination is apostate. The Catholic denomination introduced heresy starting with prayers for the dead and sign of the cross, approximately began in 310 AD.
Veneration to angels and dead "Saints", approx. 375.
The worship of Mary, and giving her the title "Mother of God", approx. 431.
Priests begin to dress elaborately, 500 AD.
The doctrine of purgatory, 593.
A chosen language for use, even though it would be an unknown language to a parishioner...the Latin language was chosen as the language of prayer and worship in churches, 600 AD.
The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the emperor Phocas, 610 AD.
The kissing of the Pope's feet, 709 AD.
Worship of the cross, images and relics, 788.
Canonization of dead saints, 795 AD.
Holy Water, water mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, 850 AD.
Fasting on Fridays and during Lent, 998 AD.
The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.
The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, 1079 AD.
The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans.
The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion.
The sale of Indulgences, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, 1190 AD.
The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed upon by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215.
The priests from all over the world pretends to perform daily a miracle by changing the wafers into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive. The Lord's Supper is remembrance of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. See Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; 1st Corinthians 11:26.
Confession of sin to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III., in the Lateran Council, 1215 AD.
The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius, 1220 AD.
The Bible forbidden to laymen and placed in the Index of forbidden books by the Council of Valencia, 1229 AD.
The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, and English monk, 1287 AD.
The Ave Maria, 1508 AD. The Hail Mary (sometimes called the "Angelical salutation", sometimes, from the first words in its Latin form, the "Ave Maria") is the most familiar of all the prayers used by the Universal Church in honour of our Blessed Lady.
It is commonly described as consisting of three parts.
The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible.
The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent, 1546 AD,
The Creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed 1560 years after Christ and the apostles.
The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX, 1834 AD.
In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility.
In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary.
Cruciform
New member
Message me, and I'll be happy to provide a detailed refutation of your above list.
God's Truth
New member
We can debate here.
Those dates prove that the Catholics do not do the things that were done by Jesus and the apostles.
Cruciform
New member
Not according to the admins, who have warned that they'll ban me if I post the information here.
Already answered.
God's Truth
New member
Don't you think that you could talk about what the site says?
I just want to help you, Cruciform.
I know there is a lot of pride in being a Catholic, but I thought the truth would entice you to give up your false beliefs.
Cruciform
New member
I simply don't have time to type out pages of information for you. It's just impractical. But I can make it available to you if you message me and ask for it.
And I would like to help you as well.
My sentiments about you, too.
God's Truth
New member
Just put what you believe in your own words.
Cruciform
New member
Already answered.