Every day is a new circus.

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Trump: July 4, 2019

"In June of 1775, the Continental Congress created a unified army out of the revolutionary forces encamped around Boston and New York and named after the great George Washington, commander in chief. The Continental Army suffered a bitter winter of Valley Forge, found glory across the waters of the Delaware, and seized victory from Cornwallis of Yorktown. Our Army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do, and at Fort McHenry, under the rockets' red glare, it had nothing but victory."

11SVE6Z.png



 

Foxfire

Well-known member
Trump: July 4, 2019

"In June of 1775, the Continental Congress created a unified army out of the revolutionary forces encamped around Boston and New York and named after the great George Washington, commander in chief. The Continental Army suffered a bitter winter of Valley Forge, found glory across the waters of the Delaware, and seized victory from Cornwallis of Yorktown. Our Army manned the air, it rammed the ramparts, it took over the airports, it did everything it had to do, and at Fort McHenry, under the rockets' red glare, it had nothing but victory."

11SVE6Z.png




Ahh! History in the (re)making!

:chuckle:
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
To be fair, Trump says that the rain knocked out his teleprompter, and he had to speak on his own. Do you really expect him to know that there were no airplanes during the Revolutionary War?
 

Lon

Well-known member
Likely in your personal fondness for Dobson, your gratitude for his impact on your life, and your mistaken notion about me in relation to party politics, apparently.
No. I still think two years from now, you'll see this differently. You are calling for his horsewhipping and I've seen nothing deserving of one, literally or metaphorically. I yet believe it has nothing to do with my fondness, and everything to do with you reading well beyond his meaning.

He's a good guy. So fond as to not disagree with him? :nono: Horsewhipping is a whole other thing. Nobody has to be enamored with any particular pastor to find the context of horsewhipping offensive and inappropriate comment. You see him 'dehumanizing' and I see him 1) stating plainly that he cares, multiple times in letter and 2) that he promised to carry concerns of Border Patrol in his letter. That's it. Nothing else.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I'm talking about we as a country violating the spirit of our Constitution.

You're using 'we' as way of telling me I'm not being properly polite and deliberate.
No,that wasn't what I was saying.

This thread isn't really about the children (more of political concerns about Trump) but more about how we ourselves respond during this next year regarding these children, young adults, and some older. Our actions and words are important. We need to be indignant, while carrying dignity simply because we all (as people, as a nation) must come to a mutual table to be able to do anything about it.

Rather then, I was talking to Town about horsewhipping a pastor at length, because it was a public statement and I believe it harsh. Do we need to go on about it? :nono: It is part of my consternation that we are shooting one another with words, including the pastor and Trump, but nothing is being actually done. That bothers me. I think we are capable of better.

I think that topic is played out (at least for me). I'm moving along as I said, BUT my comments weren't about you, dear Anna. I was simply telling you why I'd spent a bit of time on a side topic.

I incredibly agree with you that children should be the focus of a good many of the threads at this point in time and that the better we are able to distance from the poor politics (I agree with you on this too - I think we (as a nation) are doing a terrible job. We weren't ready, but certainly some efforts are better than others. This all comes at a hard time, when we are working at deporting illegal aliens, vetting ones (mostly Mexicans) who are here that are working and not a burden, and then suddenly thousands are at our borders trying to do the very thing the government under Bush, Obama, and now Trump had tried to correct in the first place (more politics sorry, I'm just trying to paint the difficulty, not ignore children).

Could we streamline adoptions? I know this too is vetting BUT it then would become the financial and upbringing responsibility of anyone who cared enough. What about an orphanage or two? I don't particularly think they are best, but at least there is school, play, 3 square meals, and a few people who would care for them as well as an avenue for adoptions (might not be optimal, just brainstorming).

-Lon
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
To be fair, Trump says that the rain knocked out his teleprompter, and he had to speak on his own. Do you really expect him to know that there were no airplanes during the Revolutionary War?
To really be fair, and not cracking a joke, President Trump was predicted and expected to turn the 4th into a partisan campaign rally, and he did not do that even a whiff of it.
 

Lon

Well-known member
... is what I've quoted. You're having a problem with your own words, then.
Yes you are. You're politically to the right, Lon.
I rather 'lean' right.


Have you ever seen the interior of Ben Carson's house? It's basically a shrine to him and his accomplishments, so his ego is alive and well, larger than most, and certainly not in danger of extinction.
Out of curiosity, when were you in there? :think:

And that's all I'll say in this conversation about Carson (or Obama, Clinton, or Bush), so if you're able, let's drop Carson here.
:up: (though I'd still like to know the interesting story of how you wound up in his house! :noway: )



What I know from your posts is that your interest in the thread isn't for the children traumatized or the families separated or the intentionality of it all by the Trump administration.
True, I really don't care whose fault it is, just if we can fix it. I was happy to read of ministries reaching out, but I'd like to also see new ones started.

You want rules of order applied to the thread as if it would make everything, if not all better, at least neat and tidy with all the uncomfortable stuff tucked away out of sight.
As far as Trump? Have at him all you like. You are correct to some degree, I don't want to spend inordinate amounts of time on trump talking about the Revolutionary War and air dominance. It accomplishes nothing. At the end of the day, what have you done? Agreed with somebody else that he isn't the sharpest knife in the light socket? No argument from me.
Is it rubbing the voters' faces in it? Okay...what did that accomplish? However narcissistic Carson is (forgive the mention one last time) I think he'd have made a good president. Sanatorium and Cruz would have been okay too. We don't always get our way. I helped ensure Obama made two terms by not voting (not that such counts in my state, its never been a swing state, always Democrat votes without fail).

So, you are correct, nothing Trump would have or does catch my eye. The Border problem did and does. Is it okay if I'm only interested in a couple of points of the thread or does that slow the momentum? I can be compliant if there is a request.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I incredibly agree with you that children should be the focus of a good many of the threads at this point in time and that the better we are able to distance from the poor politics (I agree with you on this too - I think we (as a nation) are doing a terrible job. We weren't ready, but certainly some efforts are better than others. This all comes at a hard time, when we are working at deporting illegal aliens, vetting ones (mostly Mexicans) who are here that are working and not a burden, and then suddenly thousands are at our borders trying to do the very thing the government under Bush, Obama, and now Trump had tried to correct in the first place (more politics sorry, I'm just trying to paint the difficulty, not ignore children).
I agree with you and if we really care about the children we should do what every good problem solver does and address the root cause of the problem, and that's that Latin America is in general a "murder capital" of the world.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9446065/mexico-murder-rate-highest-ever-94-killings-each-day/

(Mexico's murder rate, which dwarfs the murder rate in the US, is itself dwarfed by that in Brazil and Honduras and other Latin American countries.)

Organized crime in Latin America is now like what organized crime was during Prohibition in the US, and law enforcement in the US were good problem solvers and addressed the root cause of organized crime here, and that was the leadership of organized criminals. If you remove the leaders, the rest of the criminal organization disintegrates because criminals on the whole are not very bright, and their leaders are largely the proverbial 'one-eyed man' in the land of the blind.
 
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Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
You are calling for his horsewhipping and I've seen nothing deserving of one, literally or metaphorically.
And that in itself underscores the bias I spoke to and your blindness to it.

Here you go again on supporting my thesis:
He's a good guy.
That frames it, expressing a judgment you believe to be true of someone who is meaningful to you, a thing you felt strongly enough about to advance a writing of his as an argument. A thing you continue to advance even as you fail to address my particular complaints. All I can tell you is that what he wrote wasn't. He may have written a dozen things before this that I'd have found admirable. I'm not judging his larger body of work and not carrying that into shaping my opinion on this. I'm noting what he did with the article in question.

So fond as to not disagree with him? :nono:
You said you had disagreed before, though when pressed on the point you didn't acknowledge a single instance where you differed in any meaningful way, Lon. And I asked.

Horsewhipping is a whole other thing.
So is advancing of a people: "Many of them have no marketable skills. They are illiterate and unhealthy. Some are violent criminals. Their numbers will soon overwhelm the culture [OUR culture] as we have known it, and it could bankrupt the nation [our nation]" while asking for a change in laws and allocation of resources to stem it.

Not to address their suffering, but to fight the "flood." And what do you put up to fight a flood, Lon? What is it that he's really arguing for with changes to law and allocation of resources? The wall. The president's wall. That's why he choose "flood" to begin with instead of conflagration. He's a deliberate writer, Lon. And the closing paragraph, the kicker in a rhetorical piece? That's his point.

Dobson doesn't speak to or for the good, suffering, decent people who are fleeing horrors or who simply desire what our forefathers did, once upon a time. Instead, he speaks of the "many" (whom he describes in the most alarming terms) while calling for an address to stop them. He tells us how good we've been BUT maybe shouldn't be, can't afford to be now.

Dobson plays to the selfish impulse in us by reducing their plight to an imagined and overwhelming cost and their cause to utility instead of humanity, or our Christian obligation to our neighbor and brother.

In this effort he fails his calling and your trust. It's one of the least Christian things I've ever read from a pastor, and telling me earlier how bad some of it made him feel doesn't alter that later call. In fact, were he someone who didn't care at all it would be a neat trick to convince those moved by his call and by fear and their pocketbook that they were, in some form or fashion, actually doing the right thing. I'm not saying he is that wolf, but when you could write what he did to accomplish the wolf's aim without altering it, he and those who admire him need to seriously rethink what he wrote.

So a person who struggled on the point could say, "Well, pastor Dobson has a point. I mean, he's a good man. You could see how those children moved him. But this, this worldwide flood--he's right. They're dangerous to us. It's our duty to protect ourselves from that element. We're a good, Godly people and he's a good, Godly man. I'm sorry for those people, I am. But it's like the pastor said, can we afford it? And with so "many" dangerous people among them. We should build the president's wall."

When someone invites harm to others they also invite a likened judgment, even if their harm amounts to a public, rhetorical excoriation and embarrassment, which remains a lesser thing than the harm he advocates. When a pastor does it, or anyone who has a good reputation that can work to move people in support of that, it's far worse.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
To really be fair, and not cracking a joke, President Trump was predicted and expected to turn the 4th into a partisan campaign rally, and he did not do that even a whiff of it.

It's sad comment on things when the best we can do is say that the president of the United States has misconceptions a 6th grader would know are false, but at least he didn't turn a 4th of July ceremony into a campaign stop.

Unfortunately, it turns out that he gave the Trump campaign lots of tickets for VIP seating, to help with their fundraising.

Trump's political allies receive VIP tickets for July 4th show
The White House has declined to say how the tickets will be allocated, or even how many will be given out. An official said only that "VIPs, friends and family, and members of the military" are getting access to the cordoned-off area.

But at least some of those with the special access appear to be Trump's political boosters.
The Democratic National Committee has not received any VIP tickets to allocate for the event, a spokesman said on Tuesday.
But Trump's presidential campaign did, a source close to the organization said. And so did some members of the administration, both inside the White House and at Cabinet agencies, according to a person familiar with the matter.

It's not clear yet who else will fill in the VIP section, though members of Trump's family and Vice President Mike Pence are expected to participate. So are members of the military — which is who Trump is aiming to celebrate with the event.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/politics/vip-tickets-white-house-show/index.html
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
So, for what it is worth, I tend to stop reading once I read "Hitler" or "Nazi" when I'm not reading about either.

History repeats, Lon. Imagine yourself as a non-Jewish citizen in 1930s Germany, wringing your hands and asking what we could do, if anything, about the civil laws enacted to constrict Jewish participation in society. The schools they could attend, the days they could buy meat, the doctors they could see, the musical instruments they could play.

They could be seen as reasonable enough laws, these were difficult times after all, and the prevailing authorities would know better than us average citizens what was best for a God-fearing Germany struggling to return to its former glorious cultural pre-WWI heritage... it will all work out, we just have to be patient, perhaps we could adopt a little Jewish dog for its owners who could no longer take care of it for some reason. :think:

We don't really understand why they're confined to certain neighborhoods but those in charge should be prayed for, and perhaps if we opened a little Bible study group in the empty synagogue on the corner we Christians could put our heads together and figure out whether we should believe the stories we're hearing from down at the railyards... people do tend to exaggerate after all, and one shouldn't believe everything that floats past us on the wind. :nono: And besides, wasn't it worse under the Visigoths? We should be grateful for the stability the Reich brings to society, there is security, after all, in a well-regimented society where everyone knows where they belong, and if they would just stay there, everything would be so much easier. :idunno:
 

Lon

Well-known member
And that in itself underscores the bias I spoke to and your blindness to it.
Probably in the sense that I think calling for any pastor's horsewhipping is inappropriate? Sure.

Here you go again on supporting my thesis:

That frames it, expressing a judgment you believe to be true of someone who is meaningful to you, a thing you felt strongly enough about to advance a writing of his as an argument. A thing you continue to advance even as you fail to address my particular complaints. All I can tell you is that what he wrote wasn't. He may have written a dozen things before this that I'd have found admirable. I'm not judging his larger body of work and not carrying that into shaping my opinion on this. I'm noting what he did with the article in question.
While also generally believing that calling for any pastor who is genuinely serving man and God (most of them) to stand for a horsewhipping real or metaphorical, I'm also opposed to my brother saying it. There is the extent of my opposition.


You said you had disagreed before, though when pressed on the point you didn't acknowledge a single instance where you differed in any meaningful way, Lon. And I asked.
Incorrect, I posted one immediately AND said there were others, BUT gave the one you asked for, EXACTLY as you asked for it. Again, you are going to have to read as well as I have been here. I truly, the third time through, believe you are reading into the letter more than was meant, to the point of an inappropriate horsewhipping comment (which I believe is beneath you, me, and other believers).


So is advancing of a people: "Many of them have no marketable skills.
Obviously, they don't! It WILL cost money to give them those skills. Am I or is Dobson opposed to it? No. He said he cried for them. He ALSO said there are too many, in his opinion, than we can adequately handle. YOU read into that after that point.

They are illiterate and unhealthy.
#1 'many' which is true. #2 is nowise a stretch, but just because he said something that to him was obviously true "let's horsewhip him" or rather "he should be horsewhipped! (metaphorically speaking). It is an inappropriate sentiment as far as I can see. Yes, this marks the 4th time I've been through his letter. No change. I believe you have to read into his statements ANY reason for a proverbial horsewhipping.

Some are violent criminals.
Not even 'many.' How does he know this? Border Patrol perhaps? If he is lying, he 'should' be proverbially horsewhipped. Is that really what you think is going on? I'll provide a link in the next paragraph, about 10% of illegal immigrants commit crimes, 20% of those are violent.

Their numbers will soon overwhelm the culture [OUR culture] as we have known it, and it could bankrupt the nation [our nation]" while asking for a change in laws and allocation of resources to stem it.
Does he believe it? Is it true (yes, something to worry about)?

Is horsewhipping appropriate for those reporting actual facts? However they lay? Why? Why should Dr. Dobson have a proverbial horsewhipping? Why further, is this supposed to be 'appropriate?' Why?

Not to address their suffering, but to fight the "flood." And what do you put up to fight a flood, Lon? What is it that he's really arguing for with changes to law and allocation of resources? The wall. The president's wall. That's why he choose "flood" to begin with instead of conflagration. He's a deliberate writer, Lon. And the closing paragraph, the kicker in a rhetorical piece? That's his point.
Dobson doesn't speak to or for the good, suffering, decent people who are fleeing horrors or who simply desire what our forefathers did, once upon a time. Instead, he speaks of the "many" (whom he describes in the most alarming terms) while calling for an address to stop them. He tells us how good we've been BUT maybe shouldn't be, can't afford to be now.

Dobson plays to the selfish impulse in us by reducing their plight to an imagined and overwhelming cost and their cause to utility instead of humanity, or our Christian obligation to our neighbor and brother.
Er, no. It is costing hundreds of billions of dollars. Will it bankrupt us? Maybe we need to be bankrupt. When I read this, I read a concern, not a 'Lets do nothing' comment. I've linked what his ministry is doing as well as what others can do to help. Has he done better than you? Have you done anything other than leave them there? I've not. I've prayed, hurt, maybe I should be proverbially horsewhipped too. :( I WANT to do something. For my birthday I started a Compassion International drive. I made $27 that will go directly to children in need including some of these. $20 of it was mine and it still isn't enough (I get a paycheck in a few weeks and will add more).

In this effort he fails his calling and your trust. It's one of the least Christian things I've ever read from a pastor, and telling me earlier how bad some of it made him feel doesn't alter that later call. In fact, were he someone who didn't care at all it would be a neat trick to convince those moved by his call and by fear and their pocketbook that they were, in some form or fashion, actually doing the right thing. I'm not saying he is that wolf, but when you could write what he did to accomplish the wolf's aim without altering it, he and those who admire him need to seriously rethink what he wrote.
Again, read 'into' his letter. You decided what it meant, filling in the pieces to do so, I believe. I've been through this letter 5 times now, partially a sixth as I've read your comments.

So a person who struggled on the point could say, "Well, pastor Dobson has a point. I mean, he's a good man. You could see how those children moved him. But this, this worldwide flood--he's right. They're dangerous to us. It's our duty to protect ourselves from that element. We're a good, Godly people and he's a good, Godly man. I'm sorry for those people, I am. But it's like the pastor said, can we afford it? And with so "many" dangerous people among them. We should build the president's wall."
...or, we should build a wall to discourage kids from taking these dangerous journeys, many abused and dying. It doesn't talk about the ones who are here already, but rather, something else we should do. You are putting words in his mouth. Look. Read. See. Hear.

When someone invites harm to others they also invite a likened judgment, even if their harm amounts to a public, rhetorical excoriation and embarrassment, which remains a lesser thing than the harm he advocates. When a pastor does it, or anyone who has a good reputation that can work to move people in support of that, it's far worse.
Building the wall wasn't the action he requested. He requested prayer and said Trump was the only one he knew of that might be able to do anything. Clearly, Democrats did block aid for a long time. Pelosi made a statement about the children during the government shutdown, and called for her own party to 'stop' blocking aid.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Probably in the sense that I think calling for any pastor's horsewhipping is inappropriate? Sure.
Lon, saying you believe it's similar doesn't really illustrate why anyone else should.

While also generally believing that calling for any pastor who is genuinely serving man and God (most of them) to stand for a horsewhipping real or metaphorical, I'm also opposed to my brother saying it. There is the extent of my opposition.
Well, first off, it isn't "real or metaphorical." It was literally set out, in clear, unambiguous language, it's metaphorical. That's part of what I'm speaking to though when I talk about your bias and how it distorts your perception. I'll have a couple of other examples later on in this, at least one illustrated with your help.

As to this point, more particularly, it's not about judging the weight of his life. It's about this piece of fruit he's put out for consumption. You only hammer at his vocation and expand the consideration because the singular is hard to defend. It's that bias pulling out the stops, Lon.

On my noting that part of this is found in your larger agreement with Dobson and lack of serious difference that I think colors your thinking about him in this particular.
Incorrect, I posted one
Well, I wrote: What did you differ with him on that mattered before I read this article? What's the last thing of importance that comes to mind?
I was somewhat opposed to him going to see Ted Bundy, more-so him publishing anything of that meeting. There were other men available without doing anything highly publicized 'for' the man if he wanted to repent. There are others, but you asked for the first that came to mind.
So you think somewhat differing with him seeing, no publishing his visit constitutes differing with him on something that mattered? Something important? Really. I'll try to find stronger words to contextualize important then. I mean a difference on principle, not methodology. If you like his haircut but don't think he should have had one before Lent, it's not exactly a thing of moment, Lon.

Obviously, they don't! It WILL cost money to give them those skills. Am I or is Dobson opposed to it? No. He said he cried for them. He ALSO said there are too many, in his opinion, than we can adequately handle. YOU read into that after that point.

I don't have any reason to believe Dobson wouldn't oppose it, given he wants to build the wall and turn the tide we can't afford. You're talking about spending even more money. I think you're a better man than the one you defend, Lon. He cried for them? Pilate washed his hands and proclaimed Christ innocent. Then what did he do?

#1 'many' which is true. #2 is nowise a stretch, but just because he said something that to him was obviously true
Let's just take on you continuing to hide something behind "MANY". As though because he put that in or failed to say ALL it's a meaningful defense of his one sided mischaracterization. It isn't. It isn't a defense because he doesn't attempt to balance it at all, gives no hint of how few that many constitutes or of the good people that would balance or frame that. ALL he speaks to in summing why you should fear and reject the other, the immigrant, is the criminal, illiterate, and sick that constitute a worldwide flood he says could bankrupt us.

"let's horsewhip him" or rather "he should be horsewhipped! (metaphorically speaking). It is an inappropriate sentiment as far as I can see.
Then I'd say you should stop squinting and also stop implying the metaphorical was anything but directly stated as the context, for Pete's sake.

Yes, this marks the 4th time I've been through his letter. No change. I believe you have to read into his statements ANY reason for a proverbial horsewhipping.
And yet you really haven't responded on point to my telling you exactly what's wrong with his letter and why. You're about to come closer, but I don't believe you're going to be glad you did.

Not even 'many.' How does he know this? Border Patrol perhaps? If he is lying, he 'should' be proverbially horsewhipped. Is that really what you think is going on? I'll provide a link in the next paragraph, about 10% of illegal immigrants commit crimes, 20% of those are violent.
Stop and consider what you just proffered (and Dobson didn't). If true that would mean 90% of those immigrants don't commit crimes and that of those that will 80% of those crimes will be non-violent. Or, the overwhelming majority he fails to represent as a balancing point against concern, aren't that thing at all and won't be.

How you miss that I can't understand. It's why he says "many" Lon. Because he can't push the fear and loathing found in "criminal...sick...illiterate" if he rests on slim numbers. And he doesn't mean for you to consider that majority, or he'd have done that.

Is horsewhipping appropriate for those reporting actual facts?
It's metaphorically appropriate for misleading people to the harm of those impacted by the effort, which with your help I only just illustrated him doing, again.


Building the wall wasn't the action he requested.
You read it four times and missed:

"The situation I have described is the reason President Donald Trump's border wall is so urgently needed."

That's why he called them a flood, Lon. It's why he talked politics as soon as he could, blaming Obama, telling his audience that Democrats wanted to see future votes for them pouring in before using those unqualified labels. It's what this is about, Lon. You just missed it, like you missed that line. This is an attempt by a man who supports the president to diminish an embarrassment (and weapon in the next election cycle), and to turn it into another way of whipping up the base instead.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
It's sad comment on things when the best we can do is say that the president of the United States has misconceptions a 6th grader would know are false, but at least he didn't turn a 4th of July ceremony into a campaign stop.

Unfortunately, it turns out that he gave the Trump campaign lots of tickets for VIP seating, to help with their fundraising.

Trump's political allies receive VIP tickets for July 4th show
The White House has declined to say how the tickets will be allocated, or even how many will be given out. An official said only that "VIPs, friends and family, and members of the military" are getting access to the cordoned-off area.

But at least some of those with the special access appear to be Trump's political boosters.
The Democratic National Committee has not received any VIP tickets to allocate for the event, a spokesman said on Tuesday.
But Trump's presidential campaign did, a source close to the organization said. And so did some members of the administration, both inside the White House and at Cabinet agencies, according to a person familiar with the matter.

It's not clear yet who else will fill in the VIP section, though members of Trump's family and Vice President Mike Pence are expected to participate. So are members of the military — which is who Trump is aiming to celebrate with the event.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/politics/vip-tickets-white-house-show/index.html
Nonetheless, my point stands.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
The point being that our president lacks the historical knowledge of an average 6th grader, but did manage to turn a 4th of July celebration into a campaign event?

Yes, those are both true.
He was expected "to turn a 4th of July celebration into a campaign event," but he did not.
 
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