Don't Tithe: Give more or less, but not 10%!

[jeremiah]

But Deuteronomy chapter 30 15 to 20 clearly has the Lord God saying that keeping the law of God brings life.....Therefore God says choose life. Breaking the law and worshipping other gods brings death.
Romans 6-14 is understood in the context of verse 13 and 15. We are alive from the dead through Jesus. We who believe, have all broken the Law and have been ransomed and born again through Jesus. We are not under the law of sin and death. We can still sin, but we can not die eternally for our sins, since that death price was paid for us. So shall we sin since, we can now no longer suffer eternal death and seperation from God. Of course not. Just become a servant of God by obediance unto Righteousness.
The Torah or Law is still life-giving. It is a life of freedom in righteousness as explained by verses 16-18.
The law is not evil and it does not hurt to keep it, unless one keeps it slavishly, and ignores the opportunities to show grace, love and forgiveness when it becomes necessary to break a leeser law in order to keep a greater law.
The priest who gave a starving King David, the showbread; The good Samaritan who helped a dying stranger; The Christians who lied to the Nazis and hid the Jews, and disobeyed their government.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by jeremiah

Our Fellowship sets ten percent of our tithes aside for the Feasts of the Lord. When we celebrate Passover, or Pentecost, everything is paid for through the Church. Also the Church supports the widows and orphanages through the tithes on a weekly basis. Wr are encouraged to give some of our tithe to people in need, who cross our path.
We are not incorporated, we are a Church, of God!
Jesus said to tithe without neglecting the weigthier matters of the Law.

World Wide Church of God, Armstrongism?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

So was Paul.


James was explicitly talking about being justified by works. He even said that verbatim...

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James unabashedly teaches law, in directly conflict with Paul's Gospel of Grace. You are reading other people's mail. You can try all you like to mix the two; the result of which will be confusion, frustration and failure.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Mid Acts? I was also talking to sozo. You are reading his mail.

James does not contradict Romans. He expands on the nature of saving faith. We are saved by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone. Faith is the root, works are the fruit (Eph. 2:8-10 balance of faith and works in Pauline teaching, not just James). Man cannot see heart faith, so we are 'justified' before man by works, the fruit of genuine faith. We are not saved by works, but genuine faith will result in good works that are evidence to man that we are saved. Mid-Acts is not needed as a way to reconcile the alleged discrepancy. Luther wrongly called James a 'straw gospel'. He simply did not understand the relationship of faith and works. There is no contradiction between Romans and James. It is different perspectives on the one Gospel.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by jeremiah

I am not trying to be cute, but I think that they are both in effect. The fact that we continue on each day with so much sin in our lives and in this world, proves to me that grace is in effect.
The fact that our consciences alert us, when we sin, proves that the law still exists.
However, I think that the definition of "the Law" is best defined as the 'teaching and instruction of God.'
One does not gain salvation by keeping to God's teaching and instructions, but neither is that a good reason to ignore them, as if they were all for a different people, time, or place! The commandments are for anyone who is a child of God. They bring life, and not death. They are for are good and not for our harm.
One can not be harmed by tithing, unless one sees it as a part of keeping all the "Law" unto salvation. Then the "law" becomes a curse.
If the New Covenant is a covenant of grace, and it is, then what does it mean when He states that He will write the "Law" on our hearts? Jeremiah 31-31thru34

Inner motive vs outward acts. The Law is from the Lawgiver. We need to understand the relationship of the law to grace. Too many seem to think the law is evil or harmful. It convicts of sin, does not have power to save, but does have principles for right living in society.

 

[Lighthouse]

:doh:

Romans 6:14 says that we "are not under the law, but under grace"!

Romans 4:14 says, "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"

v. 15 says, "Because the law worketh wrath:"

1 Corinthians 15:56 "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith:"
-Galatians 3:11-12a

"But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
-Galatians 5:8

"[Christ v. 13] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;"
-Ephesians 2:15a

 

[godrulz]

The moral law of God still has principles for believers. The ceremonial or dietary laws are not binding on the NT church.

 

[jeremiah]

Originally posted by godrulz

World Wide Church of God, Armstrongism?

No, I meant the true Church of God, in context, the called out assembly of God's people. I was not referring to that denomination, or any denomination in particular.
However the particular fellowship that I belong to is a Messianic- Christian fellowship.
We believe we are saved by the blood of Yeshua, since none of us has been capable of keeping the whole law of God. We believe that it is however, no excuse, not to attempt to be obediant to all the teaching and statutes that the Father said were eternal, and for the true israel of God. The Israel to which we may have been born into, but we are now certainly grafted into.

 

[godrulz]

Whew

 

[Lighthouse]

jeremiah-

Originally posted by lighthouse

:doh:

Romans 6:14 says that we "are not under the law, but under grace"!

Romans 4:14 says, "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"

v. 15 says, "Because the law worketh wrath:"

1 Corinthians 15:56 "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith:"
-Galatians 3:11-12a

"But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
-Galatians 5:8

"[Christ v. 13] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;"
-Ephesians 2:15a

 

[jeremiah]

Originally posted by lighthouse

:doh:

Romans 6:14 says that we "are not under the law, but under grace"!

Romans 4:14 says, "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"

v. 15 says, "Because the law worketh wrath:"

1 Corinthians 15:56 "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith:"
-Galatians 3:11-12a

"But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
-Galatians 5:8

"[Christ v. 13] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;"
-Ephesians 2:15a

Galatians 3-21 Then is the law against the promises of God?Let it not be! For if a law had been given which had been able to make alive, indeed rigteousness would have been out of law. But the Scripture locked up all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to the ones believing. But before the coming of faith we were guarded under law, having been locked up to the faith about to be revealed. So that the law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But faith having come we are no longer under a trainer. For you are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

I would propose to you that no one has ever been able to keep the whole law, and in our present human stste no one can, and hardly anyone, keeps it perfectly in their heart, for even one day.
Before Christ was revealed to the circumcised of God at the cross, they only had the law. Yet every honest man knew that he was guilty under the law, and the law called for his death. Men thus called upon the name of the Lord and believed in God, in faith, that He would forgive them and have mercy on them beyond the law. Abraham was saved before the Law was written down. Moses was saved by faith and not by keeing the law. Hebrews 11 lists and explains the faith of those under the law .
Yet God did not condemn anyone for keeping the law. He only condemns those who broke the law. The statutes themselves are good. It is the breaking of the law that is bad. It is a curse and death to those who break it, and we all have.
God further explains that because we are fallen and have an evil inclination, the very presence of the law makes us desire to do the thing that is now descibed and forbidden. I would guess if God could change the tithe down to 1% then people would be complaining and not giving even the 1%.
The problem is not with the law itself. The problem is with being judged by it. God does not judge us by the Law because Christ paid the penalty of death for us. Now we are free from the burden of the law of sin and death, and free to obey the statutes from our hearts.
When Jesus said, if you have lusted after a woman, in your heart, you have already committed adultery with her, then why did he not say to just go ahead and commit the actual adultery?
It seems to me that is what people who do not want to keep the Law are saying. We have already broken the law and it can't bring us life, so let's just do what we think is right.
The things that are right are already written down for us. Let"s just follow them so that we can have an unmovable standard to judge ourselves by. If our standard is solely our own idea of love, or how we think that the Spirit is guiding us today, then we can each be doing what is right in our own eyes. It is very relative.
If, I do not want to give ten percent and give it grudgingly, then I have already broken the command in my heart, just like the adultery. So should I not give the tithe, should I commit the adultery. What say you, Lighthouse?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

The moral law of God still has principles for believers. The ceremonial or dietary laws are not binding on the NT church.

That is BULL! YOU have ZERO evidence of that demonic doctrine of yours. YOU are an evil cultist.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

That is BULL! YOU have ZERO evidence of that demonic doctrine of yours. YOU are an evil cultist.

What do I mean by moral law of God and moral law giver? What do you think I mean?

Last I heard, NT writer's, including Jesus supported the moral law of God. Neither Jews nor Christians are to worship idols, commit adultery, murder people, hate parents, covet, steal, lie, etc. The fact that we do this in the power of the Spirit and obedience to His word (volition; choices) does not negate the universality and divine nature of the Law from the heart of a responsible, holy God. Quit nitpicking and make sure you do not read your legalistic ideas into a word that is not evil. The law of gravity, economic laws, health laws, spiritual laws, moral laws, laws of math or physics....these are reflections of an intelligent Creator.

I have freedom to eat pork. I am free from all kinds of cultural, OT laws. I am not free from the Law of love that comes from the heart of a holy God. I do not commit adultery because Christ is in me. Some believers do. They are disobeying His law and there are consequences (marriage breakup, Aids, etc.).

How was church today? The awesome majesty and presence of God was palpable as we worshipped Him in the beauty of His holiness. Did you go to Church? Do you ever go to a church or are you like some others here who cannot find a 'perfectionism, Mid-Acts, or whatever' church that lives up to their arrogant standards? Do you look for uniformity and consensus with your views or do you value love, unity, and diversity without compromising essential truth? What church do you attend? If you do not, you are out of sync with NT Christianity that presumes you will be part of a local church if you are in vertical relationship with God.

There is a difference between validating the universal Law of God that was not rescinded (murder, idol worship, adultery), and demonic doctrines like Buddhists or JWs or Mormons have. Those who love God and His Word and come in the name of Jesus Christ are not evil cultists. Koresh, Jim Jones, Moon, Manson, etc. are evil cultists. You devalue words by using them for evangelical, Protestant Christians.

Whether one tithes or not, one can still be a godly Christian. You and I are cases in point. Our salvation is not based on whether we tithe or not, it is based on Jesus Christ.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by jeremiah

Galatians 3-21 Then is the law against the promises of God?Let it not be! For if a law had been given which had been able to make alive, indeed rigteousness would have been out of law. But the Scripture locked up all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to the ones believing. But before the coming of faith we were guarded under law, having been locked up to the faith about to be revealed. So that the law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But faith having come we are no longer under a trainer. For you are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

I would propose to you that no one has ever been able to keep the whole law, and in our present human stste no one can, and hardly anyone, keeps it perfectly in their heart, for even one day.
Before Christ was revealed to the circumcised of God at the cross, they only had the law. Yet every honest man knew that he was guilty under the law, and the law called for his death. Men thus called upon the name of the Lord and believed in God, in faith, that He would forgive them and have mercy on them beyond the law. Abraham was saved before the Law was written down. Moses was saved by faith and not by keeing the law. Hebrews 11 lists and explains the faith of those under the law .
Yet God did not condemn anyone for keeping the law. He only condemns those who broke the law. The statutes themselves are good. It is the breaking of the law that is bad. It is a curse and death to those who break it, and we all have.
God further explains that because we are fallen and have an evil inclination, the very presence of the law makes us desire to do the thing that is now descibed and forbidden. I would guess if God could change the tithe down to 1% then people would be complaining and not giving even the 1%.
The problem is not with the law itself. The problem is with being judged by it. God does not judge us by the Law because Christ paid the penalty of death for us. Now we are free from the burden of the law of sin and death, and free to obey the statutes from our hearts.
When Jesus said, if you have lusted after a woman, in your heart, you have already committed adultery with her, then why did he not say to just go ahead and commit the actual adultery?
It seems to me that is what people who do not want to keep the Law are saying. We have already broken the law and it can't bring us life, so let's just do what we think is right.
The things that are right are already written down for us. Let"s just follow them so that we can have an unmovable standard to judge ourselves by. If our standard is solely our own idea of love, or how we think that the Spirit is guiding us today, then we can each be doing what is right in our own eyes. It is very relative.
If, I do not want to give ten percent and give it grudgingly, then I have already broken the command in my heart, just like the adultery. So should I not give the tithe, should I commit the adultery. What say you, Lighthouse?

Firstly, because Christ has come, and died, and risen, we are no longer under the law, and you should give from your heart, instead of by calculation. If you can, listen to the show linked to in the first post.

As for adultery, no you should not commit adultery, but you already have, haven't you? But, for the same reasons we are not under the law, we are free from sin. Dead to it. If you are in Christ, then you will not want to commit adultery, and you will want to give from the heart, instead of calculation.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

That is BULL! YOU have ZERO evidence of that demonic doctrine of yours. YOU are an evil cultist.

:yawn:

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by granite1010

:yawn:

Exactly. I have never seen such juvenile behavior and attitudes in all my Christian relations for a quarter century (except from those with mental problems).

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

I have never seen such juvenile behavior and attitudes in all my Christian relations for a quarter century

I have never seen anyone who is more of a liar and a perverter of the the truth than YOU. A mass murdering lunatic is more of a Christian than YOU are.

YOU hop around here, posting your anti-Christ crap, and then YOU play the innocent with your other godless lying friends.

At some point, YOU will be known to all, that YOU are just as much a liar as granite is.

I was on to him from the beginning, and I am on to YOU.

I have exposed YOU as a false teacher.

Don't give us your sob story that our differences are "non-salvic", because that is a lie. YOU repeatedly affirm that salvation is a question of moral uprightness.

YOU are preaching a gospel that points people to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

YOU are a devil!

I am pointing people to the tree of Life!

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

I have never seen anyone who is more of a liar and a perverter of the the truth than YOU. A mass murdering lunatic is more of a Christian than YOU are.

YOU hop around here, posting your anti-Christ crap, and then YOU play the innocent with your other godless lying friends.

At some point, YOU will be known to all, that YOU are just as much a liar as granite is.

I was on to him from the beginning, and I am on to YOU.

I have exposed YOU as a false teacher.

Don't give us your sob story that our differences are "non-salvic", because that is a lie. YOU repeatedly affirm that salvation is a question of moral uprightness.

YOU are preaching a gospel that points people to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

YOU are a devil!

I am pointing people to the tree of Life!

:yawn:

Sozo, all that's exposed is your ego and thin skin.

 

[Lighthouse]

godrulz has exposed himself for what he is countless times, rocky.

Sozo-
I really do think it is futile to continue to point out what godrulz is. As I said to granite, he has exposed himself for what he is, already. And he continues to do so. There is no need to do it for him.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by lighthouse

godrulz has exposed himself for what he is countless times, rocky.

Sozo-
I really do think it is futile to continue to point out what godrulz is. As I said to granite, he has exposed himself for what he is, already. And he continues to do so. There is no need to do it for him.

I'm officially in the land of Oz when people think it's Rulz who has issues, not Sozo.:kookoo:

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

I have never seen anyone who is more of a liar and a perverter of the the truth than YOU. A mass murdering lunatic is more of a Christian than YOU are.

YOU hop around here, posting your anti-Christ crap, and then YOU play the innocent with your other godless lying friends.

At some point, YOU will be known to all, that YOU are just as much a liar as granite is.

I was on to him from the beginning, and I am on to YOU.

I have exposed YOU as a false teacher.

Don't give us your sob story that our differences are "non-salvic", because that is a lie. YOU repeatedly affirm that salvation is a question of moral uprightness.

YOU are preaching a gospel that points people to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

YOU are a devil!

I am pointing people to the tree of Life!

You can point people to trees. I will continue to point them to the tree Jesus died on and Himself, the one who gives eternal life.

Nice hyperbole. Another hit on your credibility (mass murderer?).

I repeatedly affirm that salvation is NOT a matter of moral uprightness. Romans 1 is clear that it is by grace through faith in the Old and New Covenant, not by works or self-reformation.

The devil is a devil. I am a blood bought saint in the house of God.

What church do you go to again? You are so myopic, I doubt that you attend a church. You would not put up with anyone who disagrees with you. If you do not attend somewhere, you are out of sync with explicit NT Christianity. You do not live up to that light while you take toothpicks out of other's eyes.