ECT Does the book of James contradict Paul's epistles? How?

oatmeal

Well-known member
When you let scripture explain itself, then you have something you can sink your teeth into

I Corinthians 1:18-24

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Two different gospels? No, only one "Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God"

Two different needs because of two different backgrounds, Judeans and Gentiles are not the same in background, but in believing they are the same
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
I like that.

LA

That is how the truth is supposed to work...

We also say that God became man so that man could by Grace become one with God...

"It is written: 'Ye are gods...', and what is written cannot be unwritten..." [Christ speaking in John...]

Becoming unified with God is called in the Ancient Christian Church even to this day "Theosis"... That union, with God, is what John calls "eternal life" - eg "Knowing the One True God, and His Son, Jesus Christ." THAT knowing means intimate union with, as in the marriage of the Lamb... It is the same knowing that the Jews understand as marital conjoining...

Except in the Church, and in this oneness with God, it is WAY more intimate than the union of man and woman in marriage...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
So RD, was Christ right or wrong in Acts 1:8?

But ye shall receive power,
after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
and ye shall be witnesses unto me
both in Jerusalem,
and in all Judaea,
and in Samaria,
and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



A.
 

Levolor

New member
That is how the truth is supposed to work...

We also say that God became man so that man could by Grace become one with God...

"It is written: 'Ye are gods...', and what is written cannot be unwritten..." [Christ speaking in John...]

Becoming unified with God is called in the Ancient Christian Church even to this day "Theosis"... That union, with God, is what John calls "eternal life" - eg "Knowing the One True God, and His Son, Jesus Christ." THAT knowing means intimate union with, as in the marriage of the Lamb... It is the same knowing that the Jews understand as marital conjoining...

Except in the Church, and in this oneness with God, it is WAY more intimate than the union of man and woman in marriage...

Arsenios

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes it is.

:)
 

Simon Baker

BANNED
Banned
That is how the truth is supposed to work...

We also say that God became man so that man could by Grace become one with God...

"It is written: 'Ye are gods...', and what is written cannot be unwritten..." [Christ speaking in John...]

Becoming unified with God is called in the Ancient Christian Church even to this day "Theosis"... That union, with God, is what John calls "eternal life" - eg "Knowing the One True God, and His Son, Jesus Christ." THAT knowing means intimate union with, as in the marriage of the Lamb... It is the same knowing that the Jews understand as marital conjoining...

Except in the Church, and in this oneness with God, it is WAY more intimate than the union of man and woman in marriage...

Arsenios



Best post I've seen, thus far. but, I am new :wave:
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
zzzzzzz

Ya'll sure do a lotta bragging and posturing and not much talking. Who can I actually discuss theology with around here?

This thread is about the book of James and Paul's epistles complementing each other.

You are welcome to join in.

I am asking questions. I have yet to read anything in James that even remotely contradicts or is less than complementary to Paul's epistles.

The only passage that some say contradicts is the one in my OP which I clarify to my satisfaction. Maybe not yours. There is more that could be said.

It is said to have been written about 7-8 years before the first of Paul's epistles.

It fits within the book of Acts while the leadership at Jerusalem was dealing with the growth of the church which was scattered out from Jerusalem
 

Heterodoxical

New member
This thread is about the book of James and Paul's epistles complementing each other.

You are welcome to join in.

I am asking questions. I have yet to read anything in James that even remotely contradicts or is less than complementary to Paul's epistles.

The only passage that some say contradicts is the one in my OP which I clarify to my satisfaction. Maybe not yours. There is more that could be said.

It is said to have been written about 7-8 years before the first of Paul's epistles.

It fits within the book of Acts while the leadership at Jerusalem was dealing with the growth of the church which was scattered out from Jerusalem

And my position is they don't contradict, and I explained why.

So your post confuses me.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
This thread is about the book of James and Paul's epistles complementing each other.

I have yet to read anything in James that even remotely contradicts or is less than complementary to Paul's epistles.

The only passage that some say contradicts is the one in my OP which I clarify to my satisfaction. Maybe not yours. There is more that could be said.

It is said to have been written about 7-8 years before the first of Paul's epistles.

It fits within the book of Acts while the leadership at Jerusalem was dealing with the growth of the church which was scattered out from Jerusalem

The early Church most assuredly did not think there was a division where the Gospel Christ gave to the Jews who wrote the Gospels and catholic epistles, was somehow "revised" when Christ converted and then sent forth Paul after blinding him on the road to Damascus...

And indeed, when Peter writes of Paul, he affirms his works, while giving the caution that some of what he writes is difficult to grasp and weak men can twist his meaning to their own destruction, as they do with the rest of the Bible...

His words are true even now, some 2000 years later...

Look - The crisis was real, and God sent Paul in to confront it head on... The Jews, as a Nation, had failed to receive Christ as their Anointed Savior... They killed Him, which is understandable, and then they did not repent and turn back to Him even when it was shown to them what they had done... God gave them a very long time to do the repentance needed... Paul himself, plucked out of the middle of persecuting Christians, established in himself the HABIT of, at least at first, going to the Synagogues and preaching Christ to the Jews... He only succeeded in converting some, and there was treachery and division following him everywhere... He was beaten and plotted against... But finally he had to come to grips with the fact that the conversion of the Jews had failed, and that it was time for him to convert the Nations, the Gentiles, the Ethnoi...

And this he did... Without consulting with the Church leadership in Jerusalem, for some time, and was a wonder-working and lovely man who spread joy among the faithful and converted many to faith in Christ...

But here is the rub - The Jews who had the Faith of Christ were in large part from among the most pious and holy sect of the Jews, the Pharisees... And they believed, very reasonably, that because Christ was a Jew, converts had to become Jews in order to be baptized into Christ... They needed circumcision and obedience to the Law of the Jews...

And this is where Paul met them head on, and explained that the Law had not saved them before, and could not save them now, but only faith in Christ and in the living of lives that followed Christ in the Faith of Christ which is obedience to Christ through obedience to the elders in the Church that is the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...

There is even a passage that contrasts the two approaches to Christ, where the Jews simply need faith in Christ, because they have been prepared by their obedience to the Law, and the Nations need to believe in THE Faith of Christ, which is discipled by obedience to Christ in His Body, the Church, for which Paul suffered so much... I don't remember the passage, but can find it if anyone asks... Contrasting faith in Christ with the Faith of Christ - The first without an article, and the second with the article "the"...

MADers confuse Paul's dismissal of the Law of the Jews with obedience to any law at all, when we are to be obedient to Christ... And they say that while Christ did disciple obedience, He ONLY did so to the Jews, and then revised His teaching for the Gentiles who just had to believe in Christ without any obedience whatsoever...

I think I have it now...

MADist's, please correct me if I am wrong...

Arsenios
 
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Heterodoxical

New member
MADers confuse Paul's dismissal of the Law of the Jews with obedience to any law at all, when we are to be obedient to Christ...
Or more specifically, they look at the Church Jesus the Christ is the head of, and ignore it making their own.

And they say that while Christ did disciple obedience, He ONLY did so to the Jews, and then revised His teaching for the Gentiles who just had to believe in Christ without any obedience whatsoever...

I think I have it now...

MADers, please correct me if I am wrong...

Arsenios

That's about it.

So what they ignore is OT prophecy saying that Jesus would be establishing a church after the order of Melchizedek. What do we know of Mel? He existed before a Jew ever walked the earth. he existed before any jewish law was ever written. In His church He mediated to God for mankind, maybe individually, maybe as a whole it's not clear. He was what Jesus is now. And jesus is now, in the same way, after the order, as Melchizedek was.

So if you have a church that runs as God ran the church before He wrote the law, why does obedience enter into it for anyone?

I think I'm going to make this a thread to not hijack this one. Look for it there, MELCHIZEDEK will be the title.

For the most part, I like your posts with little disagreement. Not that it matters, but I'm being transparent.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Easily said :blabla:

James 2

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?


Galatians 3

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
 

Heterodoxical

New member
James 2

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?


Galatians 3

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

And, what is the conflict?

I guess when you cherry pick and edit out of context you may have an argument to make.

MAKE IT....
 

Heterodoxical

New member
James discusses how FAITH is justified, proven, evidenced.

Paul discusses how the SOUL is justified.

They are two different conversations that cross over on some of the same words. Like Gay parades, and Gay happiness.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
So if you have a church
that runs as God ran the church before He wrote the law,
why does obedience enter into it for anyone?

Because God is one...

And we are many...

Or...

Because Adam fell through disobedience...

Or...

Because none of us are a Melchizedek...

But are one in Christ through obedience to Christ...

Perhaps, had there not been a Fall of Adam...?

Or had the Jews embraced and not crucified Christ...?

Good post...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
James discusses how FAITH is justified, proven, evidenced.

He actually says that one's faith is perfected by one's works...

Remember the old adage: "Practice makes perfect"...?

One must practice the faith in order to perfect it in one's self...

Tiger Woods is a prime example...

As is any professional athlete...

Paul discusses how the SOUL is justified.

They are two different conversations that cross over on some of the same words.

:up:

Like Gay parades, and Gay happiness.

Yup...

Mutually self-exclusionary...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
James 2

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?


Galatians 3

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

The Greek reads, for the words translated above: "...was synergizing with..."

Arsenios
 

Heterodoxical

New member
Because God is one...

And we are many...

That doesn't address the question.

Or...

Because Adam fell through disobedience...[/quote]

Christ reversed that curse with His obedience.

Or...

Because none of us are a Melchizedek...

But are one in Christ through obedience to Christ...
No one said we are melchizedek> The comment was, JESUS church is built on the basis that Mel's was built. There was no law to obey, but Mel still mediated, same as Christ does. There were no Jews or Gentiles
There was nothing to obey except love neighbor and God.
And if you get those right, you obey all of the rest of the laws as well.

Perhaps, had there not been a Fall of Adam...?

Or had the Jews embraced and not crucified Christ...?

Good post...

Arsenios
I just like to explore thoughts, so I blabber.... the more people that actually address and challenge the thoughts, the more new things we are exposed to and learn.
 
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