Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ?
- Thread starter beloved57
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themuzicman
Well-known member
The point of Romans 5:18 is first that Adam's act brought condemnation to all men, and this "all men" means "all men" without condition. Paul them uses the same construction to refer to "all men" being affected by the one righteous act, as well. So, to say that the second "all men" refers to a different set of people than the first "all men" is special pleading and poor exegesis.
The key is the preposition "εις", which denotes something coming to or against another thing. In this case, justification is brought to (or, if you prefer) "upon" all men. It does not state that any of these men are actually justified. How men become justified is not addressed in this verse.
How men are justified has already been reported in Romans 3:25, where we are justified by faith:
Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
So, when considering how we become justified, we first consider that Christ made a propitiation (which is for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2, Romans 5:18), and then we receive that and are justified by faith (Romans 3:23-25)
Nang
TOL Subscriber
One cannot exegete Romans 5:18 in isolation from Romans 5:19. The "many" in verse 19 quantifies the "all" of verse 18.
beloved57
Well-known member
Had people recognized the fact that God saved Adam that same day he fell into sin and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then they would have realized that people are born NOT in sin, but born in Christ.
People start out in life NOT lost, as our Lord explained in the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost son. Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was with his father. So with us sinners. We were born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.
Sadly, we strayed from our Shepherd, our Owner, our Father. He is now calling us to repent - overcome evil with good.
themuzicman
Well-known member
Actually, that's inaccurate. Verse 18 talks about justification coming too all men, but in verse 19, only many are "made righteous." Different ideas. Paul's point is that justification comes to all men, but not all men are made righteous.
themuzicman
Well-known member
LOL... you can't answer the obvious exegesis that refutes your claim, so you do this. Cognitive dissonance must be strong with this one.
Try reading my response again and actually interacting with it.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The "righteous act" of one Man (Christ's obedience) came to all men . . not justification.
Imputation of this righteous act of obedience results in forgiveness and life.
The imputation of righteousness is not universal, but confined to a particular many.
In your last sentence above, you attempt to confuse by wrongly inserting the word "justification" as definition of Christ's obedience. Justification is not a definition, but a legal rendering from God, based upon the righteous act of obedience of Jesus Christ.
Different doctrines.
beloved57
Well-known member
Do you see the word faith in Rom 5:18 ? Yes or No ! lol
themuzicman
Well-known member
You are altering the text. "Righteousness" only came to "many", not "all." Justification came to "all". Thus the distinction.
Until you can make the distinction, you won't understand the passage.
For those who believe.
Based upon who believes.
And yours contradicts Romans 5:18-19.
themuzicman
Well-known member
I never claimed that "Faith" was in Romans 5:18, so your question has no basis for being asked.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
No, just the opposite . . obedience was performed on behalf of all "peoples" (John 12:32) by Christ on the cross, by which "many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:19)
". . Resulting in justification of life." Romans 5:18
Justification is the particular forensic result of Christ's righteous obedience, not the universal means.
Your failure, not mine ...
beloved57
Well-known member
Faith is not required for Justification of life in Rom 5:18, Just Christ one act of Righteousness was. Now the all men His act of Righteousness was for, receive upon them the verdict from God, Justification of Life !
And we know that doesnt apply to all men without exception since a world of men are condemned with the world 1 Cor 11:32. That speaks to limited atonement !
themuzicman
Well-known member
beloved57 just denied "sola fide." I guess he's done.
Nang is changing the test of Scripture to defend Calvinism, she's done, too.
Nang is changing the test of Scripture to defend Calvinism, she's done, too.
beloved57
Well-known member
Do you see the word faith in Rom 5:18 ?
This thread is on what Rom 5:18 says and teaches !
beloved57
Well-known member
Does 1 Tim 4:10
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Does this verse teach that God in Christ is the Saviour of all men without exception? By no means, that is a contradiction of scripture, lost men don't have God as a Saviour, duh!
Instead the verse teaches limited atonement just like the Truth is in Christ Jesus. The word especially here is a adverb and it actually is a qualifier of who God in Christ is a Saviour unto. The word means:
most of all, especially.
málista (from mala, "very much") – very much the case; particularly so; especially (mostly) so.
See that, its teaching particular salvation, Hes a Saviour particularly to them believing. The word especially also means, exclusively. So God is Saviour exclusively and particularly to believers, whether jew or gentile.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Does this verse teach that God in Christ is the Saviour of all men without exception? By no means, that is a contradiction of scripture, lost men don't have God as a Saviour, duh!
Instead the verse teaches limited atonement just like the Truth is in Christ Jesus. The word especially here is a adverb and it actually is a qualifier of who God in Christ is a Saviour unto. The word means:
most of all, especially.
málista (from mala, "very much") – very much the case; particularly so; especially (mostly) so.
See that, its teaching particular salvation, Hes a Saviour particularly to them believing. The word especially also means, exclusively. So God is Saviour exclusively and particularly to believers, whether jew or gentile.
Nanja
Well-known member
Amen Brother, that verse speaks of Particular Atonement!
Those Christ died for are Saved by His Death alone before they ever come to believe 2 Tim. 1:9, but it isn't made evident until they believe Gal. 5:22.
So it's for certain that 1 Tim. 4:10 does not teach that Christ died for all men without exception. But that all men who shall Believe, are all the men that Christ is a Saviour to: All the Election of Grace chosen In Union with Him before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:3-7.
beloved57
Well-known member
Amen Sister! Now in a non salvaic sense God is the savior/preserver of all men without exception like Neh 9:6
Thou, even thou, art*Lord*alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou*preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
However Paul in 1 Tim 4 isn't referring to that, for he would not suffer reproach for that, but he would from the jews that thought salvation was only for them. Paul preached against that carnal notion.
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Nanja
Well-known member
Yes, I'm familiar wIth that verse, Brother. God is the preserver, soter, of all men Job 7:20 in that they exist for His Purpose and Will in His predestination of all His Creation, and makes them also dependent on Him.
Mat. 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
The vessels of honor, and the vessels of dishonor Rom. 9:22-23.
And this fact, all the more, confirms Limited or Particular Atonement.
True, but that Christ was the Saviour of all elect men, whether jew or gentile.