Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Man is spiritually dead,

Yes, we agree. When does a man become spiritually dead? It can't be before he's born, because scripture doesn't teach that.

born that way.

But you acknowledged that scripture doesn't say that.

So why are you promoting a belief that cannot be gleaned from scripture?

In Adam all died.

Christ died and took Adam's place, and paid for Adam's sin.

That's the whole point of Christ coming to die on the cross!
 

marke

Well-known member
So many Christians use the term "the elect" as if it is exactly equivalent to "the saved". It is not!

"The elect" or "mine elect" always has a CONTEXT and they are NOT always the SAME.
Who has the right to accuse Christians of sins since God has forgiven their sins? Nobody.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Yes, we agree. When does a man become spiritually dead? It can't be before he's born, because scripture doesn't teach that.



But you acknowledged that scripture doesn't say that.

So why are you promoting a belief that cannot be gleaned from scripture?



Christ died and took Adam's place, and paid for Adam's sin.

That's the whole point of Christ coming to die on the cross!
If we agree man is spiritually dead, then what's the contention ? All died in Adam 1 Cor 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
If we agree man is spiritually dead, then what's the contention ?

The contention is that if man is not dead at birth, then he can't have always been dead.

THEREFORE:

When does a man die spiritually, since he's not dead from birth (which the Bible doesn't teach)

All died in Adam 1 Cor 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Suggestion: All die in Adam because all are descendants of Adam. However, when one is crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:19-20), he is made a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17).

But that doesn't answer the question about when someone becomes spiritually dead. Please answer THAT question.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The contention is that if man is not dead at birth, then he can't have always been dead.

THEREFORE:

When does a man die spiritually, since he's not dead from birth (which the Bible doesn't teach)



Suggestion: All die in Adam because all are descendants of Adam. However, when one is crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:19-20), he is made a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17).

But that doesn't answer the question about when someone becomes spiritually dead. Please answer THAT question.
Man sinned and died in Adam Rom 5:12 all have sinned so all died. Whats the problem
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Man sinned and died in Adam Rom 5:12

Supra, therefore the question has not been answered.

all have sinned so all died. Whats the problem

WHEN did they die?

"In Adam" is a location, not a point in a person's life.

At what point after a person's birth does someone die spiritually?
 

marke

Well-known member
Non-sequitur

Christ is "mine elect" according to God. Does Christ need salvation from sin?
We continue to pray for lost people to be saved, for the elect's sake that they may be saved also.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Supra, therefore the question has not been answered.



WHEN did they die?

"In Adam" is a location, not a point in a person's life.

At what point after a person's birth does someone die spiritually?
In Adam all died, all sinned Rom 5:12,15

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
 

marke

Well-known member
In Adam all died, all sinned Rom 5:12,15

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Upon all men means what it says. Death came upon all men and the free gift of life came upon all men. That cannot be denied.

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber

Is a location. Not a point in someone's lifetime.

When does someone die spiritually, because they're not dead from birth?

all died, all sinned

Yes, we agree.

Rom 5:12,15

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

You're still trying to answer "did all die?" and not "when did all die?"

Answer the latter please, because we agree on the answer to the former.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Is a location. Not a point in someone's lifetime.

When does someone die spiritually, because they're not dead from birth?



Yes, we agree.



You're still trying to answer "did all die?" and not "when did all die?"

Answer the latter please, because we agree on the answer to the former.
Already answered !
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Already answered !

No, you didn't answer the question.

WHEN does a man die spiritually? Because man is not dead at birth, so he must be alive at least for a little bit after birth, no?

"In Adam" is not "when." It's "where," it means "in the flesh."
 

beloved57

Well-known member
No, you didn't answer the question.

WHEN does a man die spiritually? Because man is not dead at birth, so he must be alive at least for a little bit after birth, no?

"In Adam" is not "when." It's "where," it means "in the flesh."
yes i did. You dont accept it, thats on you.
 

ffreeloader

Well-known member
What difference does it make if man can naturally seek God, when God, by His own nature, is recorded seeking man all throughout the Bible? Our salavation is dependent on God not on ourselves. God is constantly reaching out to mankind.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
yes i did.

No, you did not. You answered a question about something that isn't in dispute, but not what I asked you.

When does a man die spiritually, since he is not dead from the womb?

You dont accept it, thats on you.

It has nothing to do with whether I accept it, because "it" hasn't been provided yet, "it" being the answer to my question.

It's one thing for me to reject your answer. It's quite another for me to reject something that you haven't even provided. So answer the question of WHEN, NOT WHERE!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Without Gods interposition no man can come to Jesus Christ, meaning believe n Him Jn 6:44,65 and agreeably without the same of the Son no man can know or come to the Father Jn 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Without God, His Grace and Spirit no man even seeks after the True God, man doesnt have even the slightest inkling of desire for the One and True God, and in fact is ignorant of Him and for all intents and purposes without any hope regarding God, the True God. Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Without Gods interposition no man can come to Jesus Christ, meaning believe n Him Jn 6:44,65 and agreeably without the same of the Son no man can know or come to the Father Jn 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Without God, His Grace and Spirit no man even seeks after the True God, man doesnt have even the slightest inkling of desire for the One and True God, and in fact is ignorant of Him and for all intents and purposes without any hope regarding God, the True God. Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Exactly Brother! Because man's heart by nature is hardened spiritually he neither seeks nor understands the True God Rom. 3:11-12, and his only remedy and hope for Eternal Life in Christ is if God give him a new heart in New Birth:

Ezek. 36:26-27 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Bringing with this New Heart, comes repentance toward God and the acknowledgement of the Truth 2 Tim. 2:25 !
 

marke

Well-known member
Without Gods interposition no man can come to Jesus Christ, meaning believe n Him Jn 6:44,65 and agreeably without the same of the Son no man can know or come to the Father Jn 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Without God, His Grace and Spirit no man even seeks after the True God, man doesnt have even the slightest inkling of desire for the One and True God, and in fact is ignorant of Him and for all intents and purposes without any hope regarding God, the True God. Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
God must first enlighten and draw the sinner to Christ before the sinner will be awakened to his need to seek forgiveness for his sins. Jesus is the light that enlightened every sinner born into the world. That sinner is not enlightened at birth but will be enlightened at some point later in life like Paul was on the road to Damascus. God enlightens and draws every sinner to Jesus at some point in the sinner's life.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
 
Top