Derailment thread for any and all derailments

[Right Divider]

Is this where I say "yes they do?"

Okay.

Here's a random pastor, a Baptist minister apparently, charged with murder:

Ala. pastor charged with murder | Baptist Press

An Alabama pastor has been charged with the murder of his wife who was found dead in their home in July 2013, according to a breaking story posted on The Alabama Baptist newspaper's website.

www.baptistpress.com

Was he a Christian before the murder? How about after the murder?

Nobody is saying that not a single Christian ever murdered someone.
The point is that it's the extremely rare exception.

 

[annabenedetti]

Nobody is saying that not a single Christian ever murdered someone.
The point is that it's the extremely rare exception.

Yeah, actually, you did.

CLUE: Real Christians to not murder innocent people.

 

[Right Divider]

Yeah, actually, you did.

It's called a GENERALIZATION.

I was not attempting to exclude 100% of Christians from the statement.

But, of course, you always take things the way that you want.

 

[annabenedetti]

It's called a GENERALIZATION.

I was not attempting to exclude 100% of Christians from the statement.

But, of course, you always take things the way that you want.

I took it the way you wrote it.

 

[Right Divider]

I took it the way you wrote it.

No, you took it to an extreme that I was not intending.
You do it all the time.... oops another generalization that you won't be able to understand.

 

[annabenedetti]

No, you took it to an extreme that I was not intending.
You do it all the time.... oops another generalization that you won't be able to understand.

Then why did you say it? Because you made a blanket statement with no room for "exceptions."

So I'll say what I said again: bad Christians do bad things.

 

[OZOS]

Tell me the answer. Go ahead.

A murderer does not have eternal life in them.
Having eternal life is what identifies someone as a Christian.
If they murder, then you know they don't have eternal life in them.
A murderer can believe, after they murder, and then have life in them.
So, before murder, not a Christian. After murder, maybe.

 

[Zeke]

Job knows about deat

:think:

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

 

[annabenedetti]

A murderer does not have eternal life in them.
Having eternal life is what identifies someone as a Christian.
If they murder, then you know they don't have eternal life in them.
A murderer can believe, after they murder, and then have life in them.
So, before murder, not a Christian. After murder, maybe.

Didn't he have eternal life in him when he was a pastor at the First Baptist Church before the murder?

Serious question. I'm asking because this has bothered me for a long time, the way Christians claim someone who does (or a group of someones do) bad things, weren't 'true' Christians. This basically allows you to wash your hands of anyone who might tarnish the image. Why not admit that yes, Christians do bad things, and yet they're still Christians?

 

[Hilltrot]

@Right Divider

Since I can't respond to your post in the Black History thread because I've been blocked from it, I'll answer you here.

I think they are, even if in name only. If someone calls themselves a Christian, I consider them to be a Christian even if it could be argued from their actions that they could only be Christian in name or membership only or what have you. Whether they are or not is between them and God. There are certain kinds of Christians who delight in telling other people they're not Christians, (while subscribing to OSAS or 'I'm a sinner but I'm saved,' thus reserving that assured redemption for themselves but not others). There are bad Christians who do bad things, like lynching and terrorizing innocent Blacks. History is clear on this.

If we are talking about everyone who calls themselves a Christian then you're right. There are tons of murderers in jail who have had "born-again" experiences and claim tey've turned over a new leaf. Many do this to get out of jail or obtain parole earlier

Many people in power claim Christianity for the power one can weld. This is less true than it use to be as Christianity in not popular in many states like California or New York. The Roman Emperors used Christianity as a means of control. Kings used Christianity to cement their own power.

Although most were converted peacefully, Christianity has been used as an excuse to conquer other lands. And no, I'm not talking about the Crusades, I'm talking about South America, Central America, and Eastern Europe. William the Conqueror gained permission from the Pope to invade England.

But one doesn't have to do much if any digging to clearly see that Christianity was not motivating their actions. The South's secession talked about such things as how they weren't able to bring their slaves with them to Long Island when they vacationed in the summer. One has to be really stupid to think that the South was inspired to go to war by Jesus.

Additionally, only the most gullible, dim-witted, or ignorant would believe that Jesus was the motivation to join or lead the KKK. But you go out of your way to insult Jesus by claiming his followers are KKK members. You could have said "I doubt they are following Jesus or they clearly are insulting Christians by claiming Jesus, but you didn't do that. You wanted to pin the KKK on Jesus. Why?

 

[annabenedetti]

But one doesn't have to do much if any digging to clearly see that Christianity was not motivating their actions. The South's secession talked about such things as how they weren't able to bring their slaves with them to Long Island when they vacationed in the summer. One has to be really stupid to think that the South was inspired to go to war by Jesus.

You don't have to do much digging to find evangelicals who think Trump is guided by Jesus. But that's not the point of this conversation.

Additionally, only the most gullible, dim-witted, or ignorant would believe that Jesus was the motivation to join or lead the KKK. But you when out of your way to insult Jesus by claiming his followers are KKK members. You could have said "I doubt they are following Jesus or they clearly are insulting Christians by claiming Jesus, but you didn't do that. You wanted to pin the KKK on Jesus. Why?

Strawman. I'm not wanting to "pin the KKK on Jesus." Stick to the actual facts:

Some of his followers are/were KKK members. That's not the fault of Jesus.

Here's one of them, from 2008:

Before shipping off a robe, Ms. Ruth holds it close to her heart and asks God for blessings on the individual who will wear it | Anthony Karen, “Aryan Outfitters,” Mother Jones

In 2008, photojournalist Anthony Karen followed “Ms. Ruth,” a contemporary seamstress of Klan robes for Mother Jones. Ms. Ruth is an Aryan outfitter while fostering relationships with her clients, whom she tells Karen are “good people” and “Christian.” Ms. Ruth takes the time to explain that the Klan remains a force of good, which continues to protect the rights of white citizens. In several of Karen’s photos, Ms. Ruth blesses each robe by holding it in her thin arms, pressing it to her chest, and closing her eyes. She says: “God bless the person who wears this robe.”

 

[annabenedetti]

Regarding my being Catholic:

That explains a lot

Coming as that does from a non-trinitarian, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. : )

 

[OZOS]

Didn't he have eternal life in him when he was a pastor at the First Baptist Church before the murder?

Serious question. I'm asking because this has bothered me for a long time, the way Christians claim someone who does (or a group of someones do) bad things, weren't 'true' Christians. This basically allows you to wash your hands of anyone who might tarnish the image. Why not admit that yes, Christians do bad things, and yet they're still Christians?

Christian do bad things all the time, but if we are going to call ourselves "Christians", it's an indicator that we actually believe the Bible, which says that "no murderer has eternal life". It's not saying that eternal life is taken if they murder, but if they murdered it is an indicator that did not have eternal life when they committed murder. Now, it does not say that about any other egregious behavior, only murder. And we can discuss this in a deeper way, if it's something you are interested in, but we would need to establish what it is you believe concerning the gospel.

 

[annabenedetti]

Christian do bad things all the time

Thanks for that much, it's more than some here are willing to say.

but if we are going to call ourselves "Christians", it's an indicator that we actually believe the Bible, which says that "no murderer has eternal life". It's not saying that eternal life is taken if they murder, but if they murdered it is an indicator that did not have eternal life when they committed murder. Now, it does not say that about any other egregious behavior, only murder. And we can discuss this in a deeper way, if it's something you are interested in, but we would need to establish what it is you believe concerning the gospel.

There's no need to establish what I believe concerning the gospel in order to adequately explain yourself. My beliefs don't and shouldn't affect your ability to answer my question. All establishing my beliefs would do would be to open me up to further attacks by people who already hate my political views and are quite willing to hate my religious beliefs as well. As a longtime truthsmacker you're well aware of that propensity, even between similar denominations. There will be those who will say I'm evading, so in advance the answer to that is no. I've been clear in the past here about what I believe, and about the doubts I've struggled with in relation to those beliefs. Neither relate to the subject we're discussing.

If you want to continue explaining the No True Christian fallacy, please do.

 

[OZOS]

If you want to continue explaining the No True Christian fallacy, please do.

In order to have that discussion, it would help if you can tell me how you define a Christian.

 

[annabenedetti]

In order to have that discussion, it would help if you can tell me how you define a Christian.

Someone who receives the Holy Spirit via baptism into the Catholic or Orthodox or mainline Protestant denominational faiths who baptize. Who believes and affirms the creed of their denomination, or who invites Jesus into their hearts in a manner recognized by various evangelical churches. Being Catholic I don't know all the ins and outs of the various denominations, but that's my basic understanding of how it happens. When I was in a Christian high school, every week at the end of chapel they'd have an altar call, and I've been a visitor in various Christian churches over the years where they've done that so I've seen some of it in action.

 

[Hilltrot]

You don't have to do much digging to find evangelicals who think Trump is guided by Jesus. But that's not the point of this conversation.

Can you find an instance on this forum where I have said that Trump is guided Jesus? Or is this just in your imagination?

Strawman. I'm not wanting to "pin the KKK on Jesus." Stick to the actual facts:

It may not be what you want to do, but that is what you are doing.

Some of his followers are/were KKK members. That's not the fault of Jesus.

That wasn't the caption you provided. You labeled the whole group as Christians. You didn't put it in quotes like this "Christians". You are still trying to pin the KKK on Jesus. If you simply had said MAGA = KKK, it would be a political statement only. A silly, untruthful, political statement, but just a political statement. But what you said is KKK=Christian. That's not damaging to MAGA, that's damaging to Christ.

And you are continuing with that damaging rhetoric, even now.

Regarding my being Catholic:

Coming as that does from a non-trinitarian, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. : )

Nor do you understand what is meant by "That explains a lot".

Catholics have a different morality and are tribal. So, it explains a lot of your behavior.

Coming as that does from a non-trinitarian, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. : )

Catholics place not a saint Augustine and others on the same footing as the Bible. So, a Catholic would have no problem with the Trinity and would not be able to understand why it is wrong. In this way, Catholicism is very similar to Urantia.

 

[OZOS]

Someone who receives the Holy Spirit via baptism into the Catholic or Orthodox or mainline Protestant denominational faiths who baptize. Who believes and affirms the creed of their denomination, or who invites Jesus into their hearts in a manner recognized by various evangelical churches. Being Catholic I don't know all the ins and outs of the various denominations, but that's my basic understanding of how it happens. When I was in a Christian high school, every week at the end of chapel they'd have an altar call, and I've been a visitor in various Christian churches over the years where they've done that so I've seen some of it in action.

Thanks for sharing that. I would agree that these are various understandings from a variety of denominations on how someone might become a Christian, as you said "how it happens", but I'm really hoping to unlock what you a believe a Christian is. I'm sure we could wrestle back and forth between behavior and belief, on what makes someone a Christian, but how does God define one? What makes them different from non-Christians from His perspective? Are they someone who has had a change of mind, a change of behavior, or do they also have a change of nature? And, if a change of nature, what change(s) took place.

 

[Right Divider]

Someone who receives the Holy Spirit via baptism into the Catholic or Orthodox or mainline Protestant denominational faiths who baptize.

So you think that the water ceremony is what makes someone a Christian?

Paul says that there is ONE baptism in the body of Christ and it has nothing to do with getting wet.

Eph 4:5 KJV One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Co 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[annabenedetti]

Can you find an instance on this forum where I have said that Trump is guided Jesus? Or is this just in your imagination?

Can you find a instance of where I said that you said Trump was guided by Jesus? Or is this just in your imagination? Here's a memory prompt:

"You don't have to do much digging to find evangelicals who think Trump is guided by Jesus. But that's not the point of this conversation."

And it's still not the point of this conversation.

It may not be what you want to do, but that is what you are doing.

That wasn't the caption you provided. You labeled the whole group as Christians. You didn't put it in quotes like this "Christians". You are still trying to pin the KKK on Jesus. If you simply had said MAGA = KKK, it would be a political statement only. A silly, untruthful, political statement, but just a political statement. But what you said is KKK=Christian. That's not damaging to MAGA, that's damaging to Christ.

And you are continuing with that damaging rhetoric, even now.

There's a photo of the KKK meeting in a Protestant church. Not the local chapter of the atheist's society or the local mosque, or the local synagogue or even the local Catholic church. It's history (and current events), and you can't change history by saying they're not Christians.