Creation vs. Evolution
- Thread starter MichaelCadry
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noguru
Well-known member
Why would someone choose common ancestry with a cockroach and oblivion after death over special creation from God and eternal contentment through faith?
I'd say they resign themselves to facing reality because they cannot deny the evidence. Not because they like the choice, if a choice actually exists.
But you will just ignore this, as you do anything that you do not like.
Hedshaker
New member
That kind of nails it for the most part :thumb:
alwight
New member
That wouldn't be the opposite, if so then that's simply more of the same, people selling books to those who are inclined to lap them up.
However, on one side we have those who simply don't want the ToE to be true perhaps because it tends to undermine their religious beliefs and assertions from a literal Genesis, while on the other we have those who may already innately doubt such assertions, who can and do point to science as being one very good reason for having that doubt and disbelief.
But science itself is neutral and is what it is. It doesn't exist to oppose or counter theistic beliefs.
It's a shame perhaps that YECs at least must simply reject science dogmatically if science doesn't fit too well with their literal adherence to an ancient scripture. And also that science must be seen by them with distrust, as an atheistic conspiracy perhaps, which is actually ludicrous.
What we need to sort out here however is not whether god(s) exist(s) but do creationist claims bound up in a literal Genesis for its "evidence" stack up, or does science with what it concludes from more empirical evidence derived from a vast number of contemporary sources seem like a more reasoned and rational conclusion? :think:
6days
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alwight said:
Yes...mostly preaching to the choir.*
alwight said:
Same as you said about books... Most lap up interpretations that support their world view. *We have atheists who simply dont want the Biblical God to be true, and who they would be *accountable to. They dont want Genesis to be true as it destroys their religious beliefs. We sort of agree that*science itself is neutral and is what it is. But to Biblical creationists, science is worship as it points to our omniscient, *omnipotent Creator.
alwight said:
Again, its like your argument about lapping up what you already believe. Atheists**simply reject science dogmatically if science doesn't fit too well with their adherence to naturalism.
Actually...your statement and mine are not totally correct because scientists on either side of the debate dont reject science. But they do reject interpretations that contradict their worldview. *
alwight said:
Science with what it concludes from empirical evidence, derived from a vast number of contemporary sources*is in absolute agreement with the Creation account. We live on a planet, and in a universe that is designed for life. We see the hand of our Creator in our intelligently designed cells...in our optimally designed eyes. We see evidence of Him in the intricate design of proteins and the vast staggering beauty of our universe. Science is worship.*
alwight
New member
Explain why atheists don't want the Biblical God specifically to exist, and why wouldn't a god of some kind existing be more desirable to atheists than total oblivion?
Otoh why don't you want say Baal or Odin to exist?
Such as?
Maybe some do, but science isn't about believing individuals, it is about the falsification of what is incorrect through the scientific method and peer review.
We live on a this tiny speck because it just happens to be able to support life for a while.
“This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.”
Douglas Addams
It is compatable with the creation account. It's creationism that it rules out. But then, Genesis rules out YE creationism as well
The Christian view:
BioLogos invites the church and the world to see the harmony between science and biblical faith as we present an evolutionary understanding of God’s creation.
The vast majority of the universe is very hostile to life.
Created, not designed. Early scientists could not have foreseen that evolutionary processes turn out to be more efficient than design.
http://lancet.mit.edu/mbwall/presentations/IntroToGAs/
It is an implicit blasphemy to deny God's creation in favor of a "designer" which many IDers say could be a "space alien."
Except for the blind spot, a reversed retina that reduces sensitivity, and so on. Makes sense in light of evolution, but from the "space alien" people, not so much.
Science can be worship, but making up "just so" stories about "optimal design" is disrespectful to Him to say the very least.
6days
New member
Barbarian said:
We agree on that.
Barbarian said:
On this we disagree. Their articles are often apostate and far from "Biblical faith".
What they do is try compromise God's Word putting evolutionary interpretations above the clear teaching of scripture.
Many of the articles they accept say things such as "Most Christians understand that, even though the Bible assumes a certain way of looking at the cosmos, from a scientific point of view the Bible is wrong. And that is perfectly fine" (contributer named Peter Enns)
Having lowered Holy scripture to a pick a choose what you want to believe type of religion; *they then put it on equal footing with the Muslim Qu'ran.
Biologos says “The creation story of BioLogos is compatible with many faith traditions. Muslims, Jews and Christians alike can align their faith with the BioLogos account of our origins, and there is no way to give a scientific proof for one monotheistic faith over another.”
That they don't take Gods Word serious is evident *when they refer to Genesis as "a story".
Moses said his writings were from God. Jesus often referred to scripture as absolute truth.
How did Jesus answer people of His time who compromised scripture?
Jesus replied, "Your mistake is that you don't know the Scriptures, and you don't know the power of God.
Matthew 22:29
And
"Thus you nullify the word of God*by your tradition*that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
Mark7:13
And
"But if you do not believe his (Moses) writings, how will you believe what I say?"
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6days
New member
science is worship
science is worship
All of us prior to salvation are in rebellion to Him. All of us want to sit on His throne...We want to be lord of our own life.*
Codes require a code maker.
Yes...we agree.
No... we live on this tiny speck because He formed it / designed it to be inhabited..
Gods Word "For the LORD is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos. "I am the LORD," he says, "and there is no other.
science is worship
alwight said:
All of us prior to salvation are in rebellion to Him. All of us want to sit on His throne...We want to be lord of our own life.*
alwight said:
Codes require a code maker.
alwight said:
Yes...we agree.
alwight said:
No... we live on this tiny speck because He formed it / designed it to be inhabited..
Gods Word "For the LORD is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos. "I am the LORD," he says, "and there is no other.
The Christian view:
BioLogos invites the church and the world to see the harmony between science and biblical faith as we present an evolutionary understanding of God’s creation.
No. They are far from the modern doctrines of YE creationism. And rightly so; YE creationism is not compatible with scripture.
And yet YE creationists deny His word in Genesis. They compromise scripture, because they don't want to accept it as it is.
He's speaking to YE creationists. Here He does that, too:
YE creationism is the invention of the Seventh-Day Adventists.
BioLogos invites the church and the world to see the harmony between science and biblical faith as we present an evolutionary understanding of God’s creation.
No. They are far from the modern doctrines of YE creationism. And rightly so; YE creationism is not compatible with scripture.
And yet YE creationists deny His word in Genesis. They compromise scripture, because they don't want to accept it as it is.
He's speaking to YE creationists. Here He does that, too:
YE creationism is the invention of the Seventh-Day Adventists.
Dear Barbarian,
Dream On! If I were OEC (Old Earth Creationist), you still wouldn't believe. How do YEC's deny His Word in Genesis?? You are full. This is much more than being an invention of the 7th Day Adventists. It is just the truth.
Alwight, you said you don't know why you get flack because you haven't sinned. But dude, to disbelieve God and His Son, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are deep sins in themselves. Figure it out. If God wants to make this world look aged for whatever reason, that is up to Him! He can definitely do it for whatever reasons He deems reasonably necessary.
With Much Love In Christ,
Michael
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alwight
New member
Poppycock. Try again without presupposing stuff that you don't actually know:
Explain why atheists don't want the Biblical God specifically to exist, and why wouldn't a god of some kind existing be more desirable to atheists than total oblivion?
Why don't you want say Baal or Odin to exist 6days?
Bald assertion and evidentially untrue.
More bald assertions, but perhaps Baal or Odin doing it might be just as (un)likely? :idea:
alwight
New member
What I said was Michael that I don't know why it would be considered at all reasonable for me to have inherited any blame/sin for something before my time and beyond my control.
I am an atheist Michael, I don't believe in one god never mind a trinity.
My disbelief here is not a deliberate choice or rebellion, it simply results from my not being reasonably convinced of any gods existence.
Performing evidence-free mental gymnastics in order to make empirical evidence conform to a preconceived idea of "God" isn't helping any imo, but yes if a supernatural power is to be introduced then just about anything can be supposed or imagined as true, even a deception and fabrication of evidence designed to mislead.
Do you think your God is perhaps trying to deceive us with misleading evidence?
6days
New member
Honestly...I think it is fear / knowledge that He does exist. Atheists cant find God for the same reason a theif can't find a policeman.... He doesn't want to find him.
noguru
Well-known member
I see you are very regular with your daily BMs here.
You do realize you are having a discussion with others, right? Because it certainly seems as though you are oblivious to that factor.
:chuckle:
alwight
New member
So apparently by your "reasoning" then I need to be a remarkably stupid person who lies about not knowing God exists, who is for no clear reason more willing to suffer eternal agony rather than to kow-tow or suck up to your particular deity?
Are the believers of other gods denying the real God too, or maybe you're too fearful of these other gods to admit that you're wrong?
6days
New member
alwight said:
On the contrary, I think you are intelligent. *You put forward good articulate arguments, and challenge myself and others*about positions we hold, and you do that in a manner that doesn't offend others... usually.
*But...rightly or wrongly, I believe everyone has, or had, an innate sense of a Creator. *I also believe people can suppress that inner belief to the point that they call themselves atheist. The Bible says that fools convince themselves there is no God. Psa.14:1 (That has nothing to do with intelligence)
God's Word tells us that some people will deliberatly ignore the clear evidence of His creation.
2 Peter 3:5 "For of this they are willfully ignorant: that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water..."
alwight
New member
I'm currently watching a David Attenborough 3D Natural History Disc called "Galapagos" , it's almost like being there. A theist might even suspect that God caused the Galapagos islands to be there to show us just how amazing Darwinian evolution is.On the contrary, I think you are intelligent. *You put forward good articulate arguments, and challenge myself and others*about positions we hold, and you do that in a manner that doesn't offend others... usually.
*But...rightly or wrongly, I believe everyone has, or had, an innate sense of a Creator. *I also believe people can suppress that inner belief to the point that they call themselves atheist. The Bible says that fools convince themselves there is no God. Psa.14:1 (That has nothing to do with intelligence)
God's Word tells us that some people will deliberatly ignore the clear evidence of His creation.
2 Peter 3:5 "For of this they are willfully ignorant: that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water..."
Evolution can produce vast numbers of different traits both obvious and subtle, so I rather suspect that in humans an evolved tendency to believe in supernatural entities exists. Humans seem to have a tendency for religious belief, and some of them were responsible for writing the scriptures that you seem to avidly prefer to adhere to. You are evolved to innately believe in a creator 6days.
I don't understand your response.noguru said:
I would have the choice of believing you or believing God. Sorry about that.
The YEC doctrine of "life ex nihilo" denies what God says. He says that the Earth brought forth living things. They weren't poofed out of nothing.
YEC was invented by a SDA "prophetess" in the early 1900s. Would you like me to show you? Before that, most creationists were OE. That was the sort of creationism presented by the creationists at the Scopes trial, for example. The great Baptist preacher, Spurgeon admitted millions of years of Earth processes. No, your new doctrine is no older than the last century.
YE isn't in the same hemisphere with the truth.
Only if one does so willfully, aware of the truth. If not, then there is no sin.
He certainly could be deceptive, if He chose to do that. But He will not be deceptive. So your belief denies a very basic attribute of God. He is truth.
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