Creation vs. Evolution

[Jacob]

You are a slippery person. That much is clear. Trying to get a straight answer from you is like nailing jello to the wall. Your feelings about the issue do not negate the reality.

Well, I don't know if you expect me to be a scientist. I have simply shared what I know from science and philosophy, with a grounding in the Bible.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dolo Resistere is male.

Do you think God needs your permission to let His loving kindness flow over someone?

No, noguru, I don't think that God needs my permission. I was just wishing him (Doloresistere) a blessing. You are being ridiculous. What else is new?

Michael

There, I didn't say any blessing for you. Happy??

:deadhorse:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael, the progression of reality is not predicated on your permission and/or understanding. In fact your understanding should be predicated on reality. That is if you truly want to see things accurately.

I never said that my reality was predicated on permission or understanding. My proclamation is that you don't know what is going on. You are the one who doesn't see things accurately and you will find that out in the near future. I'll bet you can't wait, eh?

Michael

:dead:

 

[noguru]

No, noguru, I don't think that God needs my permission. I was just wishing him (Doloresistere) a blessing. You are being ridiculous. What else is new?

Michael

There, I didn't say any blessing for you. Happy??

:deadhorse:

Thanks Michael, but I know you thought one.

 

[noguru]

Well, I don't know if you expect me to be a scientist. I have simply shared what I know from science and philosophy, with a grounding in the Bible.

It's not just science that you approach with that strategy. And no I do not expect you to be a scientist. You do not have to be a scientist to courageously and honestly consider science. I still think you do not quite understand how your strategy is blatantly clear to others.

 

[noguru]

I never said that my reality was predicated on permission or understanding. My proclamation is that you don't know what is going on. You are the one who doesn't see things accurately and you will find that out in the near future. I'll bet you can't wait, eh?

Michael

:dead:

Michael, I make the best effort humanly possible to see things accurately. If you have a better strategy I would love to hear it, would you share your insight with me?

 

[Jacob]

It's not just science that you approach with that strategy. And no I do not expect you to be a scientist. You do not have to be a scientist to courageously and honestly consider science. I still think you do not quite understand how your strategy is blatantly clear to others.

I don't mind being understood. But being understood does not carry with it the requirement of conforming. I feel as though you want me to answer questions your way, instead of as honestly as I can.

 

[noguru]

I don't mind being understood. But being understood does not carry with it the requirement of conforming. I feel as though you want me to answer questions your way, instead of as honestly as I can.

:chuckle:

There are too types of dishonesty. One is being dishonest to others. The second is being dishonest with our self. The second is worse than the first because it also ultimately leads to the second. Plus with enough practice the person in question is oblivious to their own dishonesty.

I know Shakespeare had a little to say on the matter. Socrates did as well:

An unexamined life is not worth living.

The barrier that many have a difficult time overcoming is that it is somewhat of a nuisance at first. In the short term it means indecisiveness, extended analysis, considering different opinions (the horror being that some might come from people we do not like or respect)...But the benefit is that such a person is almost always more prepared than those around him. Of course this should not present an opportunity to rest on one's laurels. There is always work to be done. Also one should not use it unfairly against others, hence they fall right back into that second category out of repetitive laziness. As the Bible says; "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword." There will always be someone else who has better mastery.

 

[Jacob]

:chuckle:

There are too types of dishonesty. One is being dishonest to others. The second is being dishonest with our self. The second is worse than the first because it also ultimately leads to the second. Plus with enough practice the person in question is oblivious to their own dishonesty.

How do you believe me to be dishonest?

 

[noguru]

How do you believe me to be dishonest?

Are you baiting me into some more wasted time? So that I can say to myself "Boy that was a lot of effort into some more wasted time." You still have not squarely addressed the first times I explained this. What can you offer this time that will be any different than before?

Let's start here.

1.) Do you accept that there is an objective reality?

2.) Do you also accept that your subjective perspective is your attempt to model that objective reality in your own mind?

 

[Jacob]

Are you baiting me into some more wasted time. You still have not squarely addressed the first times I explained this. What can you offer this time that will be any different than before?

I said I am being honest, which you have questioned.

I have been told before that in science I am not honest. But honesty has nothing to do with science. It has to do with a person's character.

 

[Jacob]

Let's start here.

1.) Do you accept that there is an objective reality?

Yes.

2.) Do you also accept that your subjective perspective is your attempt to model that objective reality in your own mind?

I don't understand this question. Subjectivity and opinions are not necessarily authoritative. But a subjective opinion can be related to objective reality. However, discovering your opinion is subjective may mean you have discovered reality to be bigger than your own ideas.

It cannot be true that everyone is right, if there is any one view that conflicts with another. But then it is not our views that determine objective reality.

 

[Jacob]

I know Shakespeare had a little to say on the matter. Socrates did as well:

The barrier that many have a difficult time overcoming is that it is somewhat of a nuisance at first. In the short term it means indecisiveness, extended analysis, considering different opinions (the horror being that some might come from people we do not like or respect)...But the benefit is that such a person is almost always more prepared than those around him. Of course this should not present an opportunity to rest on one's laurels. There is always work to be done. Also one should not use it unfairly against others, hence they fall right back into that second category out of repetitive laziness. As the Bible says; "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword." There will always be someone else who has better mastery.

2 Corinthians 13:5 NASB - Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

 

[noguru]

I don't understand this question. Subjectivity and opinions are not necessarily authoritative. But a subjective opinion can be related to objective reality. However, discovering your opinion is subjective may mean you have discovered reality to be bigger than your own ideas.

It cannot be true that everyone is right, if there is any one view that conflicts with another. But then it is not our views that determine objective reality.

Where did I say anything about "subjective opinion" necessarily being authoritative?

Where did I say anything about our views determining objective reality?

Is this really your concern?

Of course, I do not think the word "determine" is a good fit here. I think "predicated" works best.

We can try to determine what the objective reality is. So it logically follows that our subjective perspective should be predicated on the objective reality. Not the other way around. Unless you want to remain deceived.

 

[Jacob]

Where did I say anything about "subjective opinion" necessarily being authoritative?

Where did I say anything about our views determining objective reality?

Is this really your concern?

Of course, I do not think the word "determine" is a good fit here. I think "predicated" works best.

We can try to determine what the objective reality is. So it logically follows that our subjective perspective should be predicated on the objective reality. Not the other way around. Unless you want to remain deceived.

This makes sense, despite my possible misunderstanding of the word "predicated".

I spoke of authority. Mostly because our opinions should be established in the word of God.

 

[noguru]

This makes sense, despite my possible misunderstanding of the word "predicated".

I spoke of authority. Mostly because our opinions should be established in the word of God.

How do you determine what "the word of God" is? Do you consider empirical evidence when doing so? Do you think "the Bible interprets itself"?

 

[doloresistere]

Yes.
I don't understand this question. Subjectivity and opinions are not necessarily authoritative. But a subjective opinion can be related to objective reality. However, discovering your opinion is subjective may mean you have discovered reality to be bigger than your own ideas.

It cannot be true that everyone is right, if there is any one view that conflicts with another. But then it is not our views that determine objective reality.

The yellowed part is an example of the diversion I was talking about. Noguru said nothing about these separate topics you threw into your response. You are unable to focus on the points presented to you. Instead, you inject other topics into the discussion which makes it expand into an enormous time wasted enterprise.

 

[Jacob]

How do you determine what "the word of God" is? Do you consider empirical evidence when doing so? Do you think "the Bible interprets itself"?

I believe the Bible can be summarily called "the word of God". I have said it contains the word of God.

As for scripture interpreting itself, this is the idea what we should not engage in eisegesis when reading scripture.

Interpretation, tongues?

1 Corinthians 14:26 NASB - What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Interpretation, scripture.

2 Peter 1:20 NASB - But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

 

[Jacob]

The yellowed part is an example of the diversion I was talking about. Noguru said nothing about these separate topics you threw into your response. You are unable to focus on the points presented to you. Instead, you inject other topics into the discussion which makes it expand into an enormous time wasted enterprise.

It goes back to a discussion of subjective and objective truth. You may not be seeing the connection.

As for reality, truth is that which corresponds to reality.

 

[noguru]

It goes back to a discussion of subjective and objective truth. You may not be seeing the connection.

As for reality, truth is that which corresponds to reality.

Who is not seeing the connection?