Creation vs. Evolution

[Hedshaker]

Thank you nodelink but I am very familiar with theistic apologetics, but none of that relates to the question I asked regarding what is and isn't known about the authenticity of gospel authors.

But not to worry, it's no Biggie.

All the best :up:

 

[Jonahdog]

Dear Alwight,

Yes, I guess they were thought to be, but no, they were to be written by His disciples. That is only a "hypothetical" accusation. Firsthand accounts of a man who said He would come again in the latter years and latter days, and He shall toss out the chaff and take, and keep, the good wheat. How do you think people made up this stuff?? Do you think such an unusual man would not be written about considering the things He said actually came to pass (happened). The Bible itself tells who wrote each book before the different books are recorded. The book is Holy. It does not lie. It does not have mistakes in it, especially all the mistakes you all say it holds.

Tons of Blessings,

Michael

:cheers:

:angel:

Michael, I am fairly certain that alwight's post is factually correct while yours are not. Suggest you do a little more research.

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

Yes, I guess they were thought to be, but no, they were to be written by His disciples. That is only a "hypothetical" accusation. Firsthand accounts of a man who said He would come again in the latter years and latter days, and He shall toss out the chaff and take, and keep, the good wheat.

I rather think Michael that followers of any great or notable people only conclude that mainly retrospectively.
I also think that it's highly unlikely that four of Jesus' followers would have kept verbatim notes in Aramaic or Hebrew never mind Greek.
Fishermen back then were almost always illiterate in any language, and almost certainly had no writing skills at all. The only Hebrew people who would have been able read and write would have been scribes and those with a privileged education.

How do you think people made up this stuff?? Do you think such an unusual man would not be written about considering the things He said actually came to pass (happened). The Bible itself tells who wrote each book before the different books are recorded. The book is Holy. It does not lie. It does not have mistakes in it, especially all the mistakes you all say it holds.

Tons of Blessings,

Michael

:cheers:

:angel:

Jesus only became thought of as unusually special through later retellings and writings of an earlier account probably by non-eyewitnesses.
If someone today writes a book or screenplay based in an earlier time and place, who wants it to be read as something special, then it isn't really lying to spice it up a bit, or to exaggerate a few things here and there, it's just what people do, story tellers are pretty much expected to do it.
The only hard evidence of any character from the NT is "the Pilate Stone" which seems to refer to an actual Prefect Pontius Pilate existing at the time. I doubt that the gospels would be entirely made up Michael, just spruced up perhaps, with a few special or amazing additions to keep people interested.

 

[nodelink]

Thank you nodelink but I am very familiar with theistic apologetics, but none of that relates to the question I asked regarding what is and isn't known about the authenticity of gospel authors.

But not to worry, it's no Biggie.

All the best :up:

Thanks, Hedshaker.

Hello, Alwight.

Hello, Jonahdog

Hello to any others who are interested.

Conversation on the reliability of the New Testament Gospels might fit better in a separate thread. .

 

[MichaelCadry]

Actually I suspect those who knew him did not write them down. I think the generally accepted concept is that those who knew him talked about him and eventually someone further along in time wrote those words. The accuracy of that process is questionable.

Dear Jonahdog,

Hi Dude! The Bible clearly says that Matthew wrote the book of Matthew. Do not think Matthew was illiterate, for he was filled with the Holy Ghost and easily could write that gospel. And those disciples spoke in tongues, no doubt, Greek being one of them. Thank you and God's Best For You!!

Michael

atrol:

:angel:

 

[MichaelCadry]

What other response could an atheist have? That the Gospel is true and accurate?

Dear 6days,

That's about the size of it. They just say 'no' to what we write. Their people have actually lived, but our people did not actually live. That's what they are trying to feed us. It will hardly do the trick. Why do millions of people have faith that Jesus actually lived? Do you think it is an error? How many atheist Bibles are there? How many believe in God and how many do not? It seems hopeless to help atheists. They may never believe. That's what I gather.

May God Bless Your Works And May Your Works Bear Much Fruit!!

Michael

:bang:

:angel:

 

[everready]

I'd like to see one of them get through an entire day without using the name of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

everready

 

[MichaelCadry]

The difference is we have multiple sources that determine the existence of both those people conclusively, including their contemporaries, plus we have their work and material that chronicles their work along with what they wrote..... in other words, powerful evidence, none of which requires belief in the supernatural.

Dear Hedshaker,

People have multiple sources that determine the existence of Jesus also. We have the material that chronicles His work. It's totally the same.

What evidence do we have that Jesus was a real person? One book penned by anonymous authors. No contemporary evidence. You would think, if someone was going around doing all these miracles and what-not, that someone at the time would have noticed? But no, everything was cobbled together much latter from decades earlier passed down by aural tradition.... ever heard of Chinese whispers?

One large book with contemporary evidence. You read what others have said about Michelangelo and Plato. It is the SAME thing as Jesus! You can't believe in the miracles Jesus did, because God doesn't want you to believe. He'd rather not save you at this time.

That's not to say the character wasn't based on a real historical figure. Might have been. But that isn't evidence for what he is claimed to have said and certainly not evidence for the extraordinary stuff. Claims like miracle are much better explained as embellishments to the stories that were passed down through the decades. We know people exaggerate, especially when they have an agenda to promote.

However, people can believe what they want.

Yes, and people do. Arabic people are also wanting Bibles so they can learn about Jesus and what is going to befall us as a world. More Bibles bought. How many scientific journals have outsold the Bible??

I hate it that we don't agree, but you are as one of them who didn't choose God. One of the few that don't believe in Him. There are few atheists compared to Christians and Catholics. You are outnumbered.

To My Contemporary Friend!!

Michael

:cheers:

:angel:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael. how do you make a delusional person aware that they are in fact delusional?

Dear noguru,

You try to teach noguru not to be delusional by all that is written in the Bible and in churches all over the world.

:cheers: :angel:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Yes...its difficult to reconcile evolutionary beliefs with God's Word...It leads to compromise.

Just believe what God's Word plainly says and you will be ok. On the 3rd day God called the dry land earth. I don't understand the difficulty? Are you thinking that the word earth means planet earth? ... That isn't what it says.

Dear 6days,

I'm on your side, fellow. I believe in the Creation. I believe God put man and woman on a this planet Earth.

Much Love, In Christ Jesus!

Michael

:angel:

:up:

 

[MichaelCadry]

The four gospels are thought to be more like dramatic reconstructions of an earlier story, and written in Greek by later anonymous evangelists probably using the names of apostles simply as a convenience.
I realise that you may want to think that they all come from the apostles themselves but that just isn't what theologians and historians believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source

There really is no way of knowing what was factually true or from perhaps later embellishment or exaggeration, added to pull in the punters, so to speak.

Dear Alwight,

No, evangelists did not write the New Testament. You are just adamant that the disciples and apostles wrote the Bible. Why can't you believe that Paul wrote in the New Testament and also the disciples. I think you just don't know the Bible that well or else you would believe.

Much Love Coming Your Way!!

Michael

:cheers:

:angel:

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear Hedshaker,

People have multiple sources that determine the existence of Jesus also. We have the material that chronicles His work. It's totally the same.

No Michael, the Bible is the only source. Repeating yourself won't change that. But if you know of any extra-biblical contemporary sources then let's see them. But remember contemporary.... from at the time. After the time will not do.

One large book with contemporary evidence. You read what others have said about Michelangelo and Plato. It is the SAME thing as Jesus! You can't believe in the miracles Jesus did, because God doesn't want you to believe. He'd rather not save you at this time.

You cannot use the Bible to prove the the Bible Michael. That would be circular reasoning. And Michael, please don't treat me like a fool. I do not believe in your God so how can a none existent being not want me to believe in something? You have your beliefs and I have mine. If you tell me I am wrong then I can tell you you are wrong, but where does that get us?

Michelangelo Buonarroti Biography

Plato

Edit to add: these are not like with like since there are no supernatural claims about Plato and Michelangelo.

Yes, and people do. Arabic people are also wanting Bibles so they can learn about Jesus and what is going to befall us as a world. More Bibles bought. How many scientific journals have outsold the Bible??

I hate it that we don't agree, but you are as one of them who didn't choose God. One of the few that don't believe in Him. There are few atheists compared to Christians and Catholics. You are outnumbered. To My Contemporary Friend!!

Most people once believed the Sun orbited the the Earth but they were wrong. The fallacy your are using is called Argumentum ad populum

It's a logical fallacy.

From the link:

Argumentum ad populum (literally, "an argument to the people") is the logical fallacy that just because something is popular, it is therefore true (or desirable). Undoubtedly many popular notions are true, but their truth is not a function of their popularity.

This logical fallacy is often used by children as an excuse for wanting something (everybody's got one) or getting into mischief (everybody's doing it). Despite the juvenile nature of the argument, it is often used by people who should know better, particularly by those who are trying to force other people to their way of thinking. A case in point is the push in the United States to get creationism taught in public school science classes. The argument runs along the lines of suggesting that because a majority of people in the U.S. believe in creationism, it should therefore be taught as science

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

No, evangelists did not write the New Testament. You are just adamant that the disciples and apostles wrote the Bible.

I am fairly adamant Michael that the OT at least was nothing at all to do with the apostles of Jesus.
I think that the actual authors of the four gospels at least remain anonymous and in all probability are not their eponymous apostles.

Why can't you believe that Paul wrote in the New Testament and also the disciples. I think you just don't know the Bible that well or else you would believe.

Much Love Coming Your Way!!

Michael

:cheers:

:angel:

I can accept that someone called Paul did write a large part of the NT but where does that get us? :idunno:

 

[everready]

I am fairly adamant Michael that the OT at least was nothing at all to do with the apostles of Jesus.
I think that the actual authors of the four gospels at least remain anonymous and in all probability are not their eponymous apostles.

I can accept that someone called Paul did write a large part of the NT but where does that get us? :idunno:

Have you read Isaiahs detailed account of Jesus?

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Isa-53.html

everready

 

[alwight]

Have you read Isaiahs detailed account of Jesus?

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Isa-53.html

everready

I was aware that Mahershalalhashbaz, a son of Isaiah, is the longest name in the Bible, but not that Jesus actually was his "Messiah" other than being called the "Messiah" by later enthusiasts.

"Emmanuel" means "God with us" but I'm not convinced that it refers to Jesus or if later evangelists have not force-fitted Jesus into that role. lain:

 

[noguru]

Dear noguru,

You try to teach noguru not to be delusional by all that is written in the Bible and in churches all over the world.

:cheers: :angel:

Please Michael, can tell me about all the delusions you believe I have?

 

[MichaelCadry]

No Michael, the Bible is the only source. Repeating yourself won't change that. But if you know of any extra-biblical contemporary sources then let's see them. But remember contemporary.... from at the time. After the time will not do.

Dear Hedshaker,

Who are you to ask me for specific 'evidence' and sources of whether Jesus Christ was on this Earth before, and which book it had to come from. What, isn't the Holy Bible good enough for you? We also have discovered ancient scrolls that bear evidence of the Bible. Plus, I told you that you would get your evidence by the end of the year. What more do you want, brother?? I see that someone doth protest too much! This stuff is not worth even answering. The World believes in a Holy Bible and you don't. What does that tell you? Yippee!! I'm not trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible, but instead, to prove that there is a God and He has a Son!

You cannot use the Bible to prove the the Bible Michael. That would be circular reasoning. And Michael, please don't treat me like a fool. I do not believe in your God so how can a none existent being not want me to believe in something? You have your beliefs and I have mine. If you tell me I am wrong then I can tell you you are wrong, but where does that get us?

Michelangelo Buonarroti Biography

Plato

Edit to add: these are not like with like since there are no supernatural claims about Plato and Michelangelo.

OK, I can use the Dead Sea Scrolls to help 'prove' the Bible! I don't mean to upset you, Hedshaker, because I value your friendship very much. I'm not trying to cause an argument or proselytize to you. Make that very clear. Also, do you mean 'nonexistent' or 'none existent?' Your URL threads don't impress me whatsoever. My Bible and other separate scrolls, etc. can bear witness to Jesus, and Daniel and all of those written of in the Bible. We also have other books about Jesus and His Life. Just go to any bookstore you please. Read about the non-supernatural things about Him, if you are so worried about the supernatural things about Him. There are movies about Jesus and even His mother Mary.

Most people once believed the Sun orbited the the Earth but they were wrong. The fallacy your are using is called Argumentum ad populum

It's a logical fallacy.

From the link:

Quit with the Sun orbiting the Earth routine. You are constantly usually that analogy. Same as the people thinking the world was flat. My problem is that I, along with the majority of people, believe there is a God. Then there are you and your fellow believers. So what do I make of it?

Glad Tidings,

Michael

:cheers:

:angel:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Yes...its difficult to reconcile evolutionary beliefs with God's Word...It leads to compromise.

Just believe what God's Word plainly says and you will be ok. On the 3rd day God called the dry land earth. I don't understand the difficulty? Are you thinking that the word earth means planet earth? ... That isn't what it says.

Dear 6days,

Whoa! I am definitely already on your side. I believe the dry land He called earth, as opposed to the waters. That's all I am saying. I believe most everything that you believe, if not all. So don't kill the messenger.

God Watch Over Us Both!!

Michael

atrol:

:angel: :angel:

 

[MichaelCadry]

I already know it is not true

No, JD, you just think it's not true. You're afraid it's true. You don't believe it's true. Just clarifying.

Michael

:angel: :angel:

atrol:

 

[MichaelCadry]

The four gospels are thought to be more like dramatic reconstructions of an earlier story, and written in Greek by later anonymous evangelists probably using the names of apostles simply as a convenience.
I realise that you may want to think that they all come from the apostles themselves but that just isn't what theologians and historians believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source

There really is no way of knowing what was factually true or from perhaps later embellishment or exaggeration, added to pull in the punters, so to speak.

Dear Alwight,

I realize it is what I wish to think and know. For those who be wise, they might want to check into it also. To my best Buddy, Al!

Michael

:angel: :angel:

:cheers: