Creation vs. Evolution

[Caino]

The Hebrews destroyed all their "missing links" to Adam in their mythical flood creation.

 

[6days]

Sure, if this time around you're going to actually discuss the subject.

Sure... You want to discuss the shoddy interpretations.
There is a history of evolutionists trying to dehumanize bones that appear to be human. (Neandertals as example). And there is a history of evolutionists trying to humanize monkey like creatures giving them names like 'Ida'.

 

[6days]

Again, we all agree it was a deliberate hoax from over 100 years ago. What else is there to discuss about it?

There are a few reasons why its important to discuss.

1. Its entertaining watching you and others try sweep it under the rug, or try to whitewash history.

2. We notice that evolutionists who fail to learn from history, are destined to repeat shoddy conclusions.

3. It provides a classic case of invented narratives and histories meant to fit a belief system. We see the pattern continues.

4. We see the religious nature of evolutionism...the willingness to believe just so stories.

None of that makes any sense. Piltdown Man = racism?

Piltdown man was used as evidence of common ancestry. Common ancestry beliefs lead to increased racism. So, it was natural for evolutionists to see this as proof of Darwins beliefs in different races of people...some more highly evolved...others as savages that would be eliminated. Yes, common ancestry beliefs (and shoddy 'science') lead to increased racism, and provided justification for genocide.

And textbooks and journals didn't invent anything; they just wrote about the specimen.

You haven't been paying attention.

I suppose technically you are correct... a textbook can't invent or fabricate anything; it was the evolutionists who created false histories.

This looks like more of your sleazy mud-slinging. Sad.

We love you Jose.

I haven't seen anyone cover for anything.

Then surely you are willing to tell GC that Piltdown was widely accepted by many, perhaps most in the evolutionist community... and that you agree that Piltdown was used as evidence in textbooks.

 

[Jose Fly]

Sure... You want to discuss the shoddy interpretations.
There is a history of evolutionists trying to dehumanize bones that appear to be human.

Before that argument can have any meaning, you first have to say what you mean by "human", and more specifically (since we're talking about fossils) what anatomical traits put a specimen into the category of "human". Can you answer? Will you answer? :idunno:'

And there is a history of evolutionists trying to humanize monkey like creatures giving them names like 'Ida'.

And in the same vein, what anatomical characteristics put a specimen into the category of "monkey"?

 

[Jose Fly]

There are a few reasons why its important to discuss.

1. Its entertaining watching you and others try sweep it under the rug, or try to whitewash history.

2. We notice that evolutionists who fail to learn from history, are destined to repeat shoddy conclusions.

3. It provides a classic case of invented narratives and histories meant to fit a belief system. We see the pattern continues.

4. We see the religious nature of evolutionism...the willingness to believe just so stories.

This is interesting. You seem to be saying that this one deliberate fraud over 100 years ago, all by itself, not only disparages the person(s) who perpetrated it, and not only the specific field of paleoanthropology, but the entire field of evolutionary biology, including all its content and all the people who developed it over the last century.

That seems like a lot of historical and scientific weight given to one single hoax over 100 years ago, don't you think?

Piltdown man was used as evidence of common ancestry. Common ancestry beliefs lead to increased racism.

Wait...what? Common ancestry "increased racism"? That's a very specific quantitative claim, so I assume you have some actual numbers to back it up, right?

So, it was natural for evolutionists to see this as proof of Darwins beliefs

Are you arguing that Piltdown Man was the only piece of evidence for human-primate ancestry? That without it, no one would have believed it? If so, aren't you once again pinning what seems like an enormous amount of historical weight on this one hoax?

in different races of people...some more highly evolved...others as savages that would be eliminated. Yes, common ancestry beliefs (and shoddy 'science') lead to increased racism, and provided justification for genocide.

And as I showed earlier where Hitler specifically stated he was doing God's work in eliminating the Jews and claimed to be acting as a Christian, the same assertion can be made about Christianity (and with quite a bit more direct evidence to boot). :think:

You haven't been paying attention.

I suppose technically you are correct

That's hilarious. "You're not listening...well, you're right, but you're not listening because....reasons...." :chuckle:

Then surely you are willing to tell GC that Piltdown was widely accepted by many, perhaps most in the evolutionist community... and that you agree that Piltdown was used as evidence in textbooks.

I have no doubt that a portion of the scientific community fell for the hoax. After all, isn't that exactly what hoaxes are designed to do...fool people? And likewise I have no doubt that a portion of the scientific community was skeptical and remained so until the hoax was exposed.

And I have no doubt that some textbooks listed Piltdown Man among the group of hominid species known at the time. But again, what that proves....well, I guess that's for you to explain.

 

[6days]

There is a history of evolutionists trying to dehumanize bones that appear to be human.(Neandertals as example)

Before that argument can have any meaning, you first have to say what you mean by "human", and more specifically (since we're talking about fossils) what anatomical traits put a specimen into the category of "human". Can you answer? Will you answer?

The argument has meaning without creating bunny trails.

There is a reason evolutionists told us Neandertals were dimwitted and inarticulate. The reason was they wanted to portray them as a transitional creature between 'monkeys' and humans.

And there is a history of evolutionists trying to humanize monkey like creatures giving them names like 'Ida'.

And in the same vein, what anatomical characteristics put a specimen into the category of "monkey"?

The fossil named after Darwin, 'Darwinius masillae' (Ida), must bear some resemblance to its namesake you would think? After all evolutionists did discuss this fossil as a missing link. They had the worlds media abuzz with the hype of this ancient ancestor of ours.

A 5 year old might guess this fossil was a cat, or a monkey, or a racoon. Only an evolutionist could possibly think this tiny extinct lemur was a link between monkey and man. Although the fossil was real, the hyperbole was similar to that of Piltdown.

The interpretaions were shoddy. Will you agree?

 

[Jose Fly]

The argument has meaning without creating bunny trails.

Well, I asked "will you answer, can you answer" and it's obvious that once again, you won't because you can't.

Creationist dodges more questions....go figure.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Where is it written that the devil cannot command storms? You are mistaken.

Job 1:12 KJV
And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord .

Job 1:18-19 KJV
While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: [19] And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.


Dear Ross,

I'm sorry I am answering your post here late. Okay, for starters, the devil cannot command storms. The devil/Satan can "cause" a storm because of his unwanted activity, but the Lord "creates" or "commands" the storm against all evil spirit involved. Satan's false prophet 'caused' lightning to come down from heaven onto the earth, in the sight of men, because of something he was doing to/deceiving scientists at Stanford Research Institute. Not by any power that the False prophet had but instead by what he did. God actually did it, though. See Rev. 13:13KJV. For now, I'll not go into that in depth.

God has actual control over the weather, and especially tornadoes, for they are as the finger of God and by actively carefully controlling hot and cold air and pressures, he can demolish one home in a tornado and leave the one next door untouched, and then killed a person or two in one house and leaving every one else to keep living. Of course, Jesus can too, but as far as angels alone for such a thing, I cannot say at all at this conjecture. God controls everything we call Mother Nature did it. But instead of calling it Mother Nature in insurance contracts, they call it 'an act of God,' not an 'act of Mother Nature.' So Satan would have to have asked the Lord to make a strong wind indeed to bring down the building aforementioned. God can put certain things in the hand of Satan, but not God's own doing. Yes, I would guess that God has angels doing simpler weather, like rain showers, to bring rain upon those places He would have it be. God's Spirit is everywhere, so He just speaks it and it is done.

Then when you tell me that people are being spirited to heaven I also know that your revelation is not from God. Jesus and Peter and Paul tell us that the saints are not in heaven but await resurrection.

Yes, I have to say instead of saints, I meant martyrs. You are quite familiar with the thief on the cross next to Jesus was immediately forgiven and taken to heaven with Jesus. See Rev. 6:9-10KJV}. Also, we can see that Moses and Elias were seen talking with Jesus, where He was transfigured, in the garden prior to Him being betrayed.

John 3:13 KJV
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:34 KJV
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

It means and The Lord God said to my Lord Jesus, sit you on my right hand..."

Hebrews 11:35 KJV
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Question: do you think that spirits that are not loyal to God are unable to convert miles to furloughs, or are unable to read Revelation the same way Silent Hunter could if he had a mind to?

Ross, Satan had no idea what hit him. God made the tornadoes go for that amount of distance, not Satan. Satan had nothing to do with it. I didn't even find out for 5-6 months that a furlong was as long as 1/8 mile, in other ways, it takes 8 furlongs to make one mile. Back then, Satan did not know the we would be using miles as a measure of distance during these times. You give too much credit to Satan, when you shouldn't. God decided to have man measure long distances in miles, replacing furlongs. The devil did not Have A Clue!

All the assurances you are using of it being from God are flawed, and the revelations contradict Jesus.

Lastly, Rosenritter, we are supposed to be on the same side as theists or atheists. You should not be arguing with me, but instead, using your energy towards trying to reach out to atheists or evolutionists, if you wish. Are you an atheist. If so, I will not waste my time and energy giving you privileged info. So please, let us be comrades and good friends. I just have spent quite a while posting here to you for over an hour or more, and not liking it, because it is after 7 a.m. and I have not been to bed yet. I'm a night owl, but not a morning owl. I stay up until 4 a.m. or so each night. That's usually it. Good night, buddy, and let us be on the same front. If you aren't a Christian, then so be it, but my perception tells me that you are a Christian, even a Catholic, for sure. So I don't understand me getting grilled by you with everything I say. I sure hope that we can be the best of brothers soon. If I have some mistakes in this post, I am sorry about typos or whatever. But I've just got to get to bed. Morning has broken hours ago. Good Night/Day!!!

A Place In His/God Heart & His/Jesus Heart,

Michael

 

[patrick jane]

Then when you tell me that people are being spirited to heaven I also know that your revelation is not from God. Jesus and Peter and Paul tell us that the saints are not in heaven but await resurrection.

.

There are saints in heaven now -

 

[Rosenritter]

There are saints in heaven now -

No, they are not. Paul clearly tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and that for this we must be changed, then he goes on to tell us that this change will all occur for all of us at the same time, at the return of Jesus Christ. See 1 Corinthians 15, as Paul speaks and says "This is the gospel." In Hebrews it goes on to say that the saints all died in faith, not having received the promises, and that they should not be made perfect without us. And again to the Thessalonians Paul comforts those who have lost loved ones, not by telling them that their beloved are in heaven, but that they would actually precede them by a mere moment of a "twinkling of an eye" when Christ were to return, and in that fashion, "So shall we ever be with the Lord."

You'll have to do better than one-liner unsupported assertions to contend otherwise. Or is it that you are claiming that Jesus has already returned (as a Preterist?")

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes, I have to say instead of saints, I meant martyrs. You are quite familiar with the thief on the cross next to Jesus was immediately forgiven and taken to heaven with Jesus. See Rev. 6:9-10KJV}. Also, we can see that Moses and Elias were seen talking with Jesus, where He was transfigured, in the garden prior to Him being betrayed.

It means and The Lord God said to my Lord Jesus, sit you on my right hand..."

Ross, Satan had no idea what hit him. God made the tornadoes go for that amount of distance, not Satan. Satan had nothing to do with it. I didn't even find out for 5-6 months that a furlong was as long as 1/8 mile, in other ways, it takes 8 furlongs to make one mile. Back then, Satan did not know the we would be using miles as a measure of distance during these times. You give too much credit to Satan, when you shouldn't. God decided to have man measure long distances in miles, replacing furlongs. The devil did not Have A Clue!

Lastly, Rosenritter, we are supposed to be on the same side as theists or atheists. You should not be arguing with me, but instead, using your energy towards trying to reach out to atheists or evolutionists, if you wish. Are you an atheist. If so, I will not waste my time and energy giving you privileged info. So please, let us be comrades and good friends. I just have spent quite a while posting here to you for over an hour or more, and not liking it, because it is after 7 a.m. and I have not been to bed yet. I'm a night owl, but not a morning owl. I stay up until 4 a.m. or so each night. That's usually it. Good night, buddy, and let us be on the same front. If you aren't a Christian, then so be it, but my perception tells me that you are a Christian, even a Catholic, for sure. So I don't understand me getting grilled by you with everything I say. I sure hope that we can be the best of brothers soon. If I have some mistakes in this post, I am sorry about typos or whatever. But I've just got to get to bed. Morning has broken hours ago. Good Night/Day!!!

A Place In His/God Heart & His/Jesus Heart,

Michael

Martyrs are a subclass of saints, but we are still told that men have not ascended to heaven, and that we are not to be changed from corruptible to incorruptible until Christ's return. It's spoken universally.

When you look at Revelation 6, you are dealing with figures in a vision that are obviously not literal. There are horses running about being ridden by War and Death. But even if you were to take that one element of martyrs slain under the altar crying out "How long, oh Lord" notice that they are told to go back and rest, and await their fellow servants to be slain as well. If interpreted literally, they were raised for the purpose of that part of the vision. I think it more feasible that they are simply elements in the vision, like those Horsemen of the Apocalypse in the prior verses.

Likewise, when the disciples saw figures that they interpreted as Moses and Elijah at Christ's transfiguration, we are also told that this was a vision. Matthew 17:9, "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, util the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

You have taken elements from two visions and are ignoring when Jesus says clearly that men do not ascend to heaven, when Peter says that David did not ascend to heaven, as well as the entire scriptural message previous and throughout that death is the cessation of life and experience, as well as the gospel message that Paul speaks of when he says that our hope is in resurrection, and without our resurrection we have no hope and might as well eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

1Co 15:32 KJV
(32) If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.


Justin Martyr went so far to say that although there were some who called themselves Christians (in his day) that were starting to say that they ascended to heaven when they died, he called this out as blasphemy against the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and said that you should not call those people Christians.

Your revelations are mistaken, and continuing in a delusion does not do you a service or help the gospel. Speaking even more plainly, telling people that they have eternal life outside of Christ (be it in torment or joy) and denying the necessity of the resurrection is against the gospel, it is another gospel not known to Christ and the apostles.

I will put this in terms that you might appreciate. That "other gospel" of "going to heaven when you die" and "torturing those who didn't believe it until too late" is exactly what some of our atheists here have reacted to. It wouldn't matter if God is God and created the universe, they opposed what they heard on moral grounds. Thus, this is an issue, and I do bring scripture to bear against people when they make statements like "the saints are in heaven" or "you will live forever in hell fire" statements. Because they aren't true, and it blasphemes against God's character.

If you say your visions confirm that false gospel, I say your visions are wrong and that you have been misled. Since all the visions and events you describe can also be attributed to not-so-friendly spirits (or imagination) I insist on scriptural resolution. It's nothing against you in particular. I consistently oppose that doctrine when it appears.

 

[patrick jane]

No, they are not. Paul clearly tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and that for this we must be changed, then he goes on to tell us that this change will all occur for all of us at the same time, at the return of Jesus Christ. See 1 Corinthians 15, as Paul speaks and says "This is the gospel." In Hebrews it goes on to say that the saints all died in faith, not having received the promises, and that they should not be made perfect without us. And again to the Thessalonians Paul comforts those who have lost loved ones, not by telling them that their beloved are in heaven, but that they would actually precede them by a mere moment of a "twinkling of an eye" when Christ were to return, and in that fashion, "So shall we ever be with the Lord."

You'll have to do better than one-liner unsupported assertions to contend otherwise. Or is it that you are claiming that Jesus has already returned (as a Preterist?")

Read Revelation

Revelation 8:3 KJV - Revelation 6:9-10 KJV -

Hebrews 12:1-2 KJV -

and there are plenty more more verses of the saints in heaven

 

[Lon]

Read Revelation

Revelation 8:3 KJV -

and there are plenty more more verses of the saints in heaven

Philippians 1:20-24 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

[Rosenritter]

Read Revelation

Revelation 8:3 KJV - Revelation 6:9-10 KJV -

Hebrews 12:1-2 KJV -

and there are plenty more more verses of the saints in heaven

You should read the verses you cite before claiming they say something they don't. Since you aren't bothering to use the text yourself, I'll give an example by responding to the first claim:

Revelation 8:3 KJV
(3) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Notice that the angel brings the prayers of the saints before the throne. The prayers of the saints are not the saints themselves. Besides, the vision is employing figurative imagery, for prayers are not tangible objects that can be contained in a golden censer.

If you actually want to examine this, let me know when you're serious. By serious I mean actually standing still and responding to questions, rather than popping in and out with one-liners. In the meantime, I'll leave you with direct words of Christ:

John 3:13 KJV
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[patrick jane]

You should read the verses you cite before claiming they say something they don't. Since you aren't bothering to use the text yourself, I'll give an example by responding to the first claim:

Revelation 8:3 KJV
(3) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Notice that the angel brings the prayers of the saints before the throne. The prayers of the saints are not the saints themselves. Besides, the vision is employing figurative imagery, for prayers are not tangible objects that can be contained in a golden censer.

If you actually want to examine this, let me know when you're serious. By serious I mean actually standing still and responding to questions, rather than popping in and out with one-liners. In the meantime, I'll leave you with direct words of Christ:

John 3:13 KJV
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

There are saints in heaven NOW

 

[Rosenritter]

There are saints in heaven NOW

The one-liners don't work, Patrick. In Hebrews he says that without us the saints should not be made perfect, and when Paul lays out the Christian gospel to the Corinthians he says that we shall not inherit the kingdom of God without being changed, for our current body is corruptible, and our future body is incorruptible, and we shall only inherit that incorruptible body at the return of Christ.

Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV
(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

If you tell me how to open a private thread I'll create one for this topic. You and Lon or anyone else that wishes to participate in a logical reasonable manner that respects the scripture (rather than just repeating what we have heard repeated) would be welcome.

 

[patrick jane]

The one-liners don't work, Patrick.

Here is a several liner for you -

Matthew 27:52-53 KJV -

Where did the saints go? Just walking around? - btw, your long posts are tiresome. One liners work fine for me since I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Stuu]

4. We see the religious nature of evolutionism...the willingness to believe just so stories.

Tell us more about how religious beliefs involve just-so stories.

Stuart

 

[Cross Reference]

If you tell me how to open a private thread I'll create one for this topic. You and Lon or anyone else that wishes to participate in a logical reasonable manner that respects the scripture (rather than just repeating what we have heard repeated) would be welcome.

Can't be done. Trying to synthesize filthy insoluable sludge with pure water is impossible.. It must first be broken down to its individual components for elimination that there might be even the remotest chance of mingling of what might be left after success is attained..

 

[Rosenritter]

Here is a several liner for you -

Matthew 27:52-53 KJV -

Where did the saints go? Just walking around? - btw, your long posts are tiresome. One liners work fine for me since I know what I'm talking about.

Your unsupported statements become like irresponsible sniping. If you read the verse you cited, it tells you. It says they went into the city of Jerusalem and were seen of many witnesses.

Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
(52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Tell me Patrick, where did these people go after they were raised to life? See 1 Kings 17:22, Luke 8:55, and John 11:44? For all of these souls were dead, and then made alive.

1 Kings 17:22 KJV
(22) And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Luke 8:54-55 KJV
(54) And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
(55) And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

John 11:44 KJV
(44) And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.