Of course God appointed kings over Israel in the OT. How does that translate into God's will for kings to rule America or other nations? I cannot believe God endorsed the monarchy of Henry VIII or Bloody Mary.
Constitutional Monarchy
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
It doesn't. Nor has that been my argument!
PLEASE PAY ATTENTION, MARKE!
No one said He endorsed their wicked actions, but like it or not:
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. - Romans 13:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1&version=NKJV
(NOTE: this is not to say that God wanted Henry VIII or Bloody Mary to be wicked rulers, but that their position of authority was appointed by God.)
A bad king is better than an anonymous crowd of representatives, as a single point of authority often rightly motivates. (e.g. even Pontius Pilate, despite being the most wicked man in history, found Jesus innocent of any crime).
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I'm very curious how you come to that conclusion.
No other judge in history has ever judged a man to be innocent and then sentenced him to death.
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Got it. Kind of assumed that was what you meant.
I tried to read thru this thread but too many long posts: by page 2 I jumped to this page. I'll be brief...… for now...
There is only one king and that king created the entire universe. Earthly governments will always be inferior to the kingdom that the creator rules.
Politicians will never fix our problems. They don't have the IQ's required to solve problems, they have to hire experts to solve problems. They then make compromises based on politics. They can only provide political compromised solutions. Political solutions will never correct spiritual problems and they never approach anything from that angle.
There is only one king and that king created the entire universe. Earthly governments will always be inferior to the kingdom that the creator rules.
Politicians will never fix our problems. They don't have the IQ's required to solve problems, they have to hire experts to solve problems. They then make compromises based on politics. They can only provide political compromised solutions. Political solutions will never correct spiritual problems and they never approach anything from that angle.
It's worth the effort to try to read through and understand what is being said.
Duh, but until Christ returns, what is the best form of government to use (because anarchy just doesn't work)?
Politicians ARE the problem.
The proposed constitutional monarchy is an attempt at a solution.
Again, that's the entire reason for the proposed constitution and proposed government in this thread.
I don't seem to be able to use the quote function. bear with me....
you
"Duh, but until Christ returns, what is the best form of government to use (because anarchy just doesn't work)? "
me
You are missing out on the kingdom...… You probably think you are a body instead of a soul. You are a soul, you have a body as opposed to a body that has a soul.
you
"Again, that's the entire reason for the proposed constitution and proposed government in this thread."
me
I understood the issue by the end of page one. I am saying the foundation is the fault. It won't make much difference but a Monarchy in this day and age is a ridiculous idea (we can see some of that right now) . A democratic republic used to seem like a good idea but big money can buy influence. We say "one nation under God" and it's just words. IOW rebuild the foundation before trying to set up a new structure.
If you see what is happening right now, you see every one of the 10 commandments being torn down.
If I could change one thing about the current government, I would decree that lying to the pubic is a crime against humanity subject to extreme punishment and double that for any public servant.
you
"Duh, but until Christ returns, what is the best form of government to use (because anarchy just doesn't work)? "
me
You are missing out on the kingdom...… You probably think you are a body instead of a soul. You are a soul, you have a body as opposed to a body that has a soul.
you
"Again, that's the entire reason for the proposed constitution and proposed government in this thread."
me
I understood the issue by the end of page one. I am saying the foundation is the fault. It won't make much difference but a Monarchy in this day and age is a ridiculous idea (we can see some of that right now) . A democratic republic used to seem like a good idea but big money can buy influence. We say "one nation under God" and it's just words. IOW rebuild the foundation before trying to set up a new structure.
If you see what is happening right now, you see every one of the 10 commandments being torn down.
If I could change one thing about the current government, I would decree that lying to the pubic is a crime against humanity subject to extreme punishment and double that for any public servant.
@Sherman might be able to help with that.
What kingdom? The kingdom promised to the nation of Israel (of which the Body of Christ has nothing to do with)?
I'm a Christian, not a naturalist.
Furthermore, we're not just body and soul, but spirit as well. Tripartite, made in God's image and likeness.
I doubt it.
The foundation is the Bible and reason.
Appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy. Don't use logical fallacies to defend your position.
For example?
And that's relevant.... how?
Again, relevance?
Had you read through the OP thoroughly, let alone the entire thread, you would recognize that that's EXACTLY what we're proposing...
Only 5 of the Ten Commandments are valid for use in other governments besides Israel, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not commit adultery, Do not bear false witness, and Do not Covet.
The rest were meant strictly for Israel.
That's nice. Now tell us what God says the punishment should be for bearing false witness.
Do you know?
I have a different take. If a ruler commands the people to turn in Jews to be slaughtered I do not obey.
Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Pilate was wicked and yet there were greater sinners than he.
John 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
I'm sorry to see you go.
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Don't be so thin-skinned. If you cannot handle the challenge of defending your beliefs, that's on you.
So I jumped 7 pages and hit the nail on the head? I guess I didn't understand any of the OP.
btw fyi I am 72 and waiting on cataract surgery on both eyes. The VA cancelled, postponed or re-scheduled 20 million VA medical appoints in this area .
You really must be a lost more stupid than I think you are.
This idiotic statement doesn't even make any sense! Who here has ever suggested that you should be convinced by what you believe to be flawed arguments?
NO ONE!!
But your opinion that they are flawed doesn't make them flawed, Marke. If you think they're flawed, the idea isn't for you to simply tell us that you think they're flawed but for you to make an argument that shows them to be flawed. That's what is called making a rebuttal argument. It would then be our turn to present a rejoinder where we respond to your objections. Then that process repeats itself and what you end up with is what is called a debate, which is what this website is supposed to be about!
I'd give my eye teeth if I could get someone to present a cogent argument in rebuttal to ANY doctrine which I hold! That's the only thing that makes this website worth the time!
I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!!!!
Keep your emotion based, incoherent personal opinions to yourself. Either make an actual argument or just go away and stop wasting everyone's time.
So you admit to having lied about reading and you prove you haven't read it by suggesting that what is presented did not include biblical support, which it most certainly did. In fact, every single solitary point made is directly and clearly supported by scripture. A claim, by the way, that you cannot make about your mindless nonsensical belief in the idea that God had something to do with the creation of a country with a form of government that has absolutely no scriptural support whatsoever and did things like condoning race based slavery and counting black people as 3/5 of a person.
What are you talking about? Are you drunk?
Who brought up divorce? Not me! What does that have to do with anything?
As for God wanting Americans to be governed by a king, that's not the question, which, of course, you knew when you wrote that.
I suspect that God doesn't care much at all about America in particular. America is better than other nations in a lot of important ways but it wasn't divinely inspired or anything similar to that and we stopped being a Christian nation a long time ago and that is true almost entirely due to the form of government that we have! But even that isn't the point. The point isn't about America per se. We talk about it in terms of America because that's were we live but what we are talking about isn't any more or less applicable to America than it is to any other nation in the world.
The reason we advocate for a constitutional monarchy is because someone bothered to ask the question, "What is the most ideal form of government from a biblical perspective?" and the answer to that question is a constitutional monarchy. It turns out that the only form of government that God ever sanctioned, endorsed or otherwise supported in scripture was the constitutional monarchy that He personally set up for Israel.
If that form of government is good enough for God, then it's good enough for me. I'm not nearly stupid enough to think that I can figure out a superior form of government than the one God Himself set up for the nation of Israel.
Clete
You are not a kind person. Pride comes before destruction.
You have not proven God disfavored the Constitutional Republic established by early American leaders. Your interpretations of Scripture are not irrefutable but flawed if you think God clearly wills for America to be ruled by an earthly king.
That's nice.
How is that at all relevant to the thread?
The verse doesn't say "is a a greater sinner." It says ""has the greater sin."
Pilate, as I pointed out above, is the ONLY judge in history to find a Man innocent and then sentence Him to death.
He's the most evil man.
Not the worst sin.
Nicer than God | KGOV.com
Read it.
And a haughty spirit before a fall.
Hypocrite, first remove the plank from your own eye, so that you may see clearly to remove the mote from your brother's eye..
What we HAVE shown is that God chose a monarchy over a representative form of government for His nation, and that Jesus is the King of Kings, not "Senator of Senators," and that authority flows downhill, not uphill, which means that governments like a monarchy have the one in authority at the top, and the ones being ruled at the bottom, thus making them the best fit for the natural flow of authority, whereas democracies place the people over the government, over the people, over the government.... circular forms of government, like circular reasoning, don't work.
No one has claimed that they are. In fact, we have asked you SEVERAL TIMES to refute them.
You have not even attempted to do so, not one time.
Then it should be easy to show that they're flawed, yet you have yet to do so, Marke!
Same straw man argument again.
Try again.
The argument we are making is that the BEST FORM OF GOVERNMENT for ANY COUNTRY is a constitutional monarchy, BASED on the principles found in the Bible.
If simply making general conversation with you and challenging your beliefs qualifies as making you not feel welcome here, then why did you bother to join a discussion forum in the first place?
As RD said, Don't be so thin-skinned.
Pettiness and insults won't get you anywhere here, Ed, but it will earn you a warning.
Hence why I said you should read through the entire thread, instead of skipping around. This IS one of the shorter threads on TOL (for now at least), and there are much longer ones and ones with much longer posts than mine here.
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Again you spout your opinions and make NO argument. You are a sorry sad sack.